wadingjohn Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 3-20 win seasons, 3-300 strikeout seasons, WS co-mvp, 9-2 post season record...bloody sock...i don't think its so cut and dried...i think shilling's regular season stats are borderline, but his post season record gets him in, just not on the first ballot...future HOF voters will have to take into account the steroid era when deciding on pitchers with similar stats... Post season record will get him in the hof and i agree with you about his regular season stats but who has been better in the steroid era just Pedro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striper53 Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 ...not that it matters really much! I fish ...therefore I lieMember #1315Well onto my way to the next level!There's not a fish out there I won't target or a technique I won't try! At the very worst I died with my rod in my hands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Exactly...shot full of painkillers and he pitched; how bad could it have been? You want to give him a Purple Heart or a Medal of Honor, go ahead. I see it as a medical procedure that got blown out of proportion, mostly due to him being a blowhard self-promoter. As someone who has gotten filled with pain killers on a regular basis, I got to say what he did was remarkable. The pain killers kill pain but they also mess with your head quite a bit. The fact he could even keep his thought process going under such pressure is amazing. I have trouble tying my shoes on the stuff.... Let me fill you up with some Vicodins to see how well you can perform. Bet you would have a tough time just snapping your carrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striperking70 Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 As someone who has gotten filled with pain killers on a regular basis, I got to say what he did was remarkable. The pain killers kill pain but they also mess with your head quite a bit. The fact he could even keep his thought process going under such pressure is amazing. I have trouble tying my shoes on the stuff.... Let me fill you up with some Vicodins to see how well you can perform. Bet you would have a tough time just snapping your carrot. I doubt they gave him Vicodin. I agree what he did was remarkable, he should have definitely won an Oscar for his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Do you really think they'll lower the bar far enough to let a 200 game winner in the HOF?? "Depend not on fortune, but on conduct." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charloots Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 As someone who has gotten filled with pain killers on a regular basis, I got to say what he did was remarkable. The pain killers kill pain but they also mess with your head quite a bit. The fact he could even keep his thought process going under such pressure is amazing. I have trouble tying my shoes on the stuff.... Let me fill you up with some Vicodins to see how well you can perform. Bet you would have a tough time just snapping your carrot. If he was that effed up, he couldn't pitch....stop the drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 If he was that effed up, he couldn't pitch....stop the drama. If he didn't need that much PK, it's not worth mentioning the PK's at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlnd32 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 HOF is not totally about stats.Hey.if it was McGuire would be in The biggest thing that has happened in MLB in the past couple of decades is Boston finally putting the Curse of The Bambino in the past.The Red Sox won the WS...twice!The gravity that this has on MLB history can not be overstated. Take a look at the role that Shilling played in ending Boston's long and noteworthy run of agony....and put him in the HOF first ballot. Gravity on baseball. You say Yankee fans think they are the center of the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Jigger Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Do you really think they'll lower the bar far enough to let a 200 game winner in the HOF?? There are a whole slew from the 60s, 70s and 80s who should run to the Veterans' Committee and start lobbying, if 216 wins is enough. Schilling's stats are virtually identical with those of Mickey Lolich, who also had some big WS games. Tiant has an even better claim, with the season he had an ERA of 1.60. Dave Stewart had more 20 win seasons, and was as good a big game pitcher as there ever was in the late 80s. Want to put him in, too? You can only make Cooperstown off of 3-4 great seasons and a good post season record if your name is Sandy Koufax "…if catching fish is your only objective, you are either new to the game or too narrowly focused on measurable results.” - D. Stuver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albacized Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Do you really think they'll lower the bar far enough to let a 200 game winner in the HOF?? For the most part, I think pitching qualifications will follow the trends of other baseball qualifications regarding HOF entry. For example, 400 HR used to mean near automatic vote into the hall for anyone on this side of Dave Kingman. But that bar has been risen. But on the flip side, there is one major difference these days - pitchers aren't expected to pitch as long per outing. I could see this having both helpful and adverse affects in the voting. For example, on a case by case basis, you might look at a pitcher and recognize how many saves have been blown or games otherwise lost and consider that (this is where the Curt Schilling argument comes into play since he played for so many bad Phlly teams in his past)...but then again, I'd have to see evidence of other pitchers being voted in based on overall pitching performances throughout his career despite not having the number of wins to show for it. Or could a starter who considered a strong 6 inning pitcher get in because he amasses 250 wins or so but never pitches a complete game? So on one hand, I can see an argument for disregarding the number of wins (to a degree) but can see how it other cases, the number wins might be skewed. But then even on another note, I personally think pitchers are held to a higher standard anyway - for example, if hypothetically Mike Mussina had been an everyday player instead of a pitcher and enjoyed what would be generally considered the equivalent success he's had a pitcher, I think he gets in - but I don't think he's getting in as a pitcher...I think Curt falls into more or less the same catagory - except with a couple more big game successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jettyjockey18 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 dave steward had 4-20 win seasons for a great A's team in the 90's...one could even argue that he was cy-worthy at least 1 or 2 of those seasons...other than those 4 seasons though he was barely a .500 pitcher who finished with only 169 wins... you also need to consider that shilling has 3000+ K's, and the only player with 3000 K's not in the HOF is blyleven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albacized Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 dave steward had 4-20 win seasons for a great A's team in the 90's...one could even argue that he was cy-worthy at least 1 or 2 of those seasons...other than those 4 seasons though he was barely a .500 pitcher who finished with only 169 wins... you also need to consider that shilling has 3000+ K's, and the only player with 3000 K's not in the HOF is blyleven... So Bert Blyleven is the 'Dave Kingman' of the pitching world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Jigger Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 you also need to consider that shilling has 3000+ K's, and the only player with 3000 K's not in the HOF is blyleven... And about 2500 of them came in the National League, where he got to strike out the opposing pitcher at least twice a game, and a journeyman pinch-hitter another time or two. Blyleven played all but 3 years of his career in the AL where there are no soft strikeouts. Blyleven also has 287 wins and 10 seasons with an ERA under 3.00. Take away his 4 best seasons and he's also barely a .500 pitcher. Also factor in that he had 4 seasons with a losing record during the prime of his career, and that when his ERA has been under 3.00, it's been in the 2.90s. If Curt Schilling never wore a Red Sox uniform, would you consider him to be one of the dominant pitchers of his era? He hasn't even been the ace of his own staff over much of his career. Second banana to the Unit in Arizona, then behind Pedro, then Beckett, in Boston. Selected to 6 All Star rosters in 20 seasons and he didn't even pitch in half of those games. That right there tells you he's not Cooperstown material. Guys don't get into the HOF on one historical event (Don Larsen) or even one historical season (Roger Maris). "…if catching fish is your only objective, you are either new to the game or too narrowly focused on measurable results.” - D. Stuver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HookLine&Sinker Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 No, his bloody sock will make it in the hall of fame befor he does, thats if it was even reel blood to much talk about him with steroids, overall not that great anyways. he'll jsut be known as a good/decent pitcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jettyjockey18 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 And about 2500 of them came in the National League, where he got to strike out the opposing pitcher at least twice a game, and a journeyman pinch-hitter another time or two. Blyleven played all but 3 years of his career in the AL where there are no soft strikeouts. Blyleven also has 287 wins and 10 seasons with an ERA under 3.00. Take away his 4 best seasons and he's also barely a .500 pitcher. Also factor in that he had 4 seasons with a losing record during the prime of his career, and that when his ERA has been under 3.00, it's been in the 2.90s. If Curt Schilling never wore a Red Sox uniform, would you consider him to be one of the dominant pitchers of his era? He hasn't even been the ace of his own staff over much of his career. Second banana to the Unit in Arizona, then behind Pedro, then Beckett, in Boston. Selected to 6 All Star rosters in 20 seasons and he didn't even pitch in half of those games. That right there tells you he's not Cooperstown material. Guys don't get into the HOF on one historical event (Don Larsen) or even one historical season (Roger Maris). not a knock against blyleven, i don't understand why he isn't in the HOF... but i don't get your argument against shilling's stats while playing in the NL...in the 100+ years of mlb, the 3000 K club has 16 members total...how many MLB pitchers have come and gone in 100 years??...seems like a pretty exclusive club to me...if your not going to give shill credit for his K's because he played in the NL, then the same should apply to NL lifers bob gibson, greg maddux, steve carlton, etc... i also disagree that he was second banana to pedro...who started game 1 against the angels?? btw, this is the same debate that HOF voters will be having in 5 to 6 years when shilling first appears on the ballot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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