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Duplicator, wood density and plugs?

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Okay in a long line of thought provoking topics here comes the next one.

Many guys here state that they use a duplicator because they get the exact same lure each and every time. They want to duplicate the exact swimming motion on each and every plug they deem a success.

Yes by placing the exact weight, the hook holes, same wiring type of bill ect. you can get a lure that looks and weighs the same, but is it?

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.Nope it isn't, eek.gif

Well I know a few of you duplicator lovers are ready to fire back but before you do, "Think out of the box". What one thing can't you control in this process?

Your wood.

Couple of weeks ago while playing with my 5 year old nephew on his parents property. We discovered in the weeds some very old redwood post that I have been blubbering about. Old growth redwood finding these post have lead me into a lot of discoveries. One being that god did not create each and every inch of trees the same. While splitting the first post I found a goregous piece of wood deep purple red wood whose smell was awesome. This wood was dry, light, tight grained, and cut so awesome that it curled my toes.

The second piece I brought home was a smaller section but 8 inches by 8 inches. I thought cool more wood. But as soon as I split it, I knew something was totally different. This wood was not the same. Yes it was redwood, yes it was old but it wasn't as old as the post I had brought home. The first thing I noticed was the color it was what we now consider "redwood" more a pink looking wood. The grain no where as tight as the other post. It even smelled different. Curious I prepared some for cutting on the lathe and right away. First cutting I could feel the difference in wood texture. First I thought my tools weren't sharpe so I stopped and resharpened them. Nope still different. Next is how the shavings came off, it didn't cut it chipped.

And every lure I made the same thing happened. Somewhere during the operation The piece would split and come of the lathe! Now with the old growth that never happened I didn't split one.

With all this information I began to think what, why and how was all this going on.

My conclusion was the wood! Meaning that each and every piece of wood we turn must be thought as different. When I first started turning lures I asked Mike Fixter as why he didn't use redwood. Mike said that the redwood he had tried was terrible, It split, chipped and just didn't work like Cedar.

Now if we apply this to other woods we should have the same things going on. Each Cedar tree will be different size, shape, weather conditions,age of the tree will play a part in how that wood will behave. Also where the wood comes from the tree will effect density.

Another thought goes into what is Cedar? I have no idea what a cedar tree looks like? Is there a Cedar tree or is it a group of different trees with the same sub species? Lets even go deeper What is yellow cedar? We hear of Port Ord And Alaskan Yellow cedar but is there such a distinct tree as each? Or is it a types of tree that are classified as Alaskan Yellow, because it comes from Alaska, does it even come from Alaska? Does the east coast get the exact same wood as we get or is it different. I know sometimes the smell of AYC that Mike Fixter has used through the years smells different, why is that? Are the different sub species or in fact even different types of trees that fall under (a loose cedar heading)

Now think out of the box, if you have followed what I have wrote could this wood used on a duplicator create plugs that swim "exactly the same?"

I doubt it. So is using a duplicator really making lures that gave you a certain swim really a good reason for using it?

To me Jigman, has the right thought on his duplicator, When I brought this very subject up with him he laughed and said no I like what my lure looks like and want to keep the same shape. Plus, I can do other things while its cutting.

To me that is a correct and reasonable answer.

Your thoughts?

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Man do you have too much time on your hands biggrin.gif

 

I however agree, every piece of wood we turn is different. But by how much is it different...I cant tell you. One would think that if you took a 1x1x42 and cut it into 6 7inch pieces, you would have 6 pieces that are as close to identicle as you can get. But are they as similar to the next stick from the same bundle? There are many species and subspecies out there. Not all maple is created equal. I think alot of it depends on what part of the tree it was cut, whether it was the trunk, the crotch, a burl, or a limb. Then factor in moisture content.

 

How much of a difference in weight/density does there have to be to really effect the action? How much of a purist do we really need to be? If we are to say that a miniscual (sp) difference in weight will drastically change the action then shouldn't we be looking very closely at how much epoxy we use and how its applied? Wouldnt the amount of finish cause a different action?

 

The other thing I can think of is most of us are throwing these plugs into waves and currents which are constantly changing, not test pools. Isnt the "action" changed by these external influences?

 

Great topic. Sometimes I think we we think too much biggrin.gif

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No two pieces of wood are the same, even from the same board. The grain can be slightly different, the weight different, color, etc. That is one of the joys of using wood plugs: no two swim exactly the same. Yes, you can get them close. May be close enough that you cannot really tell the difference, but it is there. A duplicator is good once you have fine tuned a proto-type to the point you want copies as close as possible. Even if you get the bodies exactly the same size, add the same amout of lead, and everything else (yes, epoxy adds weight too), there will be minor variations in the two plugs that will make them swim at least a tad differently. Now, with the duplicator, using jigs, knowing how much lead to add, etc, I can do a run of plugs knowing that each will have a very similar action. This too me is important. If I break off a plug at night that is producing, I want to be able to reach down and put another one on that will behave the same. If I want/need a slightly different action dictated by the conditions (current, what the fish want, etc.) thats when the dope holding the rod comes into play wink.gif You can always tweak an individual plug to work a little different than the rest of the batch if needed.

 

Jigman

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Perfectly exact plugs are made from plastic. If that is what your hopes in plug building are you should give up the lathe and gouges or duplicator. All you can do if your goal is to make close to exact copies is hope wood density's are similiar, and impossible to gauge until the plug is finished and swimming. There are variations in every plug I ever bought. I rather have a consistent profile (thats all a duplicator gives you) and be able to modify line tie, hooks, lip, etc. to get what I want.

 

Charlie

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I got really anal about this topic, early on, to the point that I was weighing blanks to separate those too light or too heavy, or pre-floating bodies to find the natural balance point. All kinds of time wasters.

 

Now, I just make them as perfectly alike as I humanly can, and pray God let's them work. tongue.gif

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on the darters i make there is no weight added,there is diffinatley a weight range that they well perform as desired.so yes i weigh each blank.another thing to think about with wood is that it constantly changes shape depending on the coditions. so a perfectly round shape might be slightly oval next week.maybe thats way guys buy lots of 50 to find that one plug that works right LOL.

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Hello,

 

 

 

New poster here,

 

 

 

Our trees grow so slowly the grain often exceeds 60 years to the inch, 700 to 1000 years old. This makes the grain outrageously straight and uniform, as does the nature of the species generally.

 

 

 

If you folks are looking for good swimmers with repeatability, I would suggest you look into AYC from Alaska.

 

 

 

Nicole

 

 

 

**edited - the solicitous portion of this message was edited as per the posting following posting guidelines:

 

"3. No solicitation in the forums or via Private Messages.

 

We encourage contribution to this community and very much discourage solicitation and self promotion."

 

You can read the Guidelines and Help section for more information.

 

 

 

And your Private Message ability was removed for soliciting business via PMs -- good rule of thumb, if the title of your PM is something like "Don't consider this spam", then there's a real good chance that it is spam and is not welcome here.

 

 

 

If you would like to contribute here, we would love to have you - but we do ask that you respect our posting guidelines. Thanks - TimS

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If you want to sell stuff here, commercially, I suggest that you contact the site owner: TimS. Commercial sales are not allowed on the boards, or through PM's.

 

Jigman

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Honestly, I am trying to offer my knowledge in context of being a mill operator in the hopes of reaching my posting requirement for the buy/sell thread.

 

 

 

I provide a service that seems unmet in this forum, and in the process will share what I know. Sorry if I broke a rule, I am doing my best to submit real content. I am a supplier, and that is just going to show through... since I am not a lure turner.

 

 

 

Please view my thread on AYC safety issues, perhaps that will show my concern for you folks. Nicole

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Your input on AYC and other wood are certainly appreciated. When you bring up old posts and note your intent to sell stuff, which is against the user agreement that you agreed to when you signed on, it sends up a red flag. If you want to add info on wood, turning, finishing, etc, we will most certainly welcome you to continue contributing. We are a bunch of wood turning nuts here, but pretty harmless otherwise cwm12.gif

 

Jigman

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You being a supplier and commercial retailer of AYC, even with an appropriate post count, you will not be able to sell your wood in the BST forum anyways.

 

Please stick around, I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge to share with everyone, but commercial sales are forbidden here. However, I'm sure that you can set something up with Tim S when he returns to be a sponsor here.wink.gif

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