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Sage Igniter 9wt

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Fergal

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There is also such a thing as a slow rod with a fast recovery. I think that recovery speed is independent of action, though most rods that recover quickly are fast action rods that have a stiff butt mid. But that's a product of our material limitations, IMO. As resins and layups advance, we can have more slow rods (or full-flex rods that have a lot of give in the butt/mid) that recover very quickly.

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There’s always a been a bit of a gray area/overlap when describing action in terms of fast-mod, etc and stiffness. I’ve probably looked at action in terms of how far down a blank will flex (or load) and stiffness the amount of effort or power needed to get a certain amount of load. Recovery is completely different and a rod that has a ‘medium' action can still recover very quickly and crisply. Obviously, this is open to interpretation.

 

I also think that this can vary by caster based on their abilities. A med-fast rod to me might be very fast to another or vice versa. It’s really quite hard to standardize. I’ve used the shoe analogy before, there are lots of size 12 shoes but we are not likely to agree on their relative comfort for each of us (and there’s little point in arguing that since both would be correct in relative terms).

 

I will say, based on what I can see in real time (and I may be wrong here) that I’m able to have the Igniter flex midway down the blank which would classically say that it’s more ‘moderate' in action, correct? But I certainly would not call this a moderate rod. I’m up for casting practice over the weekend and I’ll try and see if I can get some action shots of the rod.

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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Thanks for wading into the action/stiffness muck with me. 

 

I've had the impression that stiff Sage rods are actually moderate in flex (they flex somewhat deep into the blank) but they're under-rated for their line weight. So I'd be curious what you think of the Igniter with a 10wt line.

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30 mins ago, iklu said:

Thanks for wading into the action/stiffness muck with me. 

 

I've had the impression that stiff Sage rods are actually moderate in flex (they flex somewhat deep into the blank) but they're under-rated for their line weight. So I'd be curious what you think of the Igniter with a 10wt line.

I plan to try it with a SA Tarpon in 10wt over the weekend. It’s pretty close to actual wt I believe.

 

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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I briefly threw it with the 10wt tarpon, I wasn't a fan but it's quite cool here today and that definitely impacted how the line behaved (they become coilly and do not shoot well at all). 

 

Sunday and Tuesday look better. I will play with it more then and post what my thoughts were.

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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4 hours ago, iklu said:

Thanks for wading into the action/stiffness muck with me. 

 

I've had the impression that stiff Sage rods are actually moderate in flex (they flex somewhat deep into the blank) but they're under-rated for their line weight. So I'd be curious what you think of the Igniter with a 10wt line.

I have that same general opinion of them too. Most are a wt higher vs the label. The Salt R8 is a little better in that regard. I have their 10, it’s ‘ok’ with multiple different 10wt lines but it’s much better with the 11wt SA Tarpon. That wasn’t what I was looking for in a 10. 

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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5 hours ago, iklu said:

There is also such a thing as a slow rod with a fast recovery. I think that recovery speed is independent of action, though most rods that recover quickly are fast action rods that have a stiff butt mid. But that's a product of our material limitations, IMO. As resins and layups advance, we can have more slow rods (or full-flex rods that have a lot of give in the butt/mid) that recover very quickly.

You can have a slow action rod with lightening fast recovery.  Slow action does not have to mean deeply bending. My own two hand rods do not have soft fast tips. They have stiff tips and were designed that way so the rod  moves and the line  comes to it not bend to it when the line is on the water. The rest of the blank behaves very much like a modern fast action salt water rod. The recovery from flex is very quick.

I can't think of rod in production with say a 10 wt rating that bends very deeply. Very difficult to design a 10 wt rod with a soft label on it. Slow action yes.  If one exists it would require a lot of caster skill to maintain good tracking and a constant acceleration through the stroke to avoid a tailing loop.

Mike

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23 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

 My own two hand rods do not have soft fast tips. They have stiff tips and were designed that way so the rod  moves and the line  comes to it not bend to it when the line is on the water. The rest of the blank behaves very much like a modern fast action salt water rod.

 

Mike, I agree with most of what you're saying, except your use of fast action to describe a rod with a stiff tip. The two hand rod you're describing sounds like it recovers quickly, and has a stiff lower half of the blank. But it's not fast action, because it has a stiff tip. A fast action means a flexy tip, a stiffer mid, and a stiff butt. Think Loomis NRX, Sage Z-axis, most of the new Orvis rods.

 

I'd say your two hand rod sounds like a classic parabolic action, which I believe is typical for two-handed rods that need to cast the same load over and over again. The stiff tip helps lift a length of line off the water, and the rod bends mostly between the second and fourth section (if it's a 6-piece rod).

 

My personal preference for saltwater fly rods is a medium-fast action. So it's a flexy tip, but it doesn't go super stiff very high in the blank. Instead, it's a progressive flex all the way down into the blank, so you get some flex and feel in the butt section. But it's not so flexible down low as to be called slow. It sounds like your CTS 10wt is just that kinda rod!

 

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3 hours ago, iklu said:

 

Mike, I agree with most of what you're saying, except your use of fast action to describe a rod with a stiff tip. The two hand rod you're describing sounds like it recovers quickly, and has a stiff lower half of the blank. But it's not fast action, because it has a stiff tip. A fast action means a flexy tip, a stiffer mid, and a stiff butt. Think Loomis NRX, Sage Z-axis, most of the new Orvis rods.

 

I'd say your two hand rod sounds like a classic parabolic action, which I believe is typical for two-handed rods that need to cast the same load over and over again. The stiff tip helps lift a length of line off the water, and the rod bends mostly between the second and fourth section (if it's a 6-piece rod).

 

My personal preference for saltwater fly rods is a medium-fast action. So it's a flexy tip, but it doesn't go super stiff very high in the blank. Instead, it's a progressive flex all the way down into the blank, so you get some flex and feel in the butt section. But it's not so flexible down low as to be called slow. It sounds like your CTS 10wt is just that kinda rod!

 

Mike's TH rod is definately not parabolic. Mike's challange was to design a blank that had the action of a well designed and balanced single handed blank - and succeeded..

 

My issue with a fast blank/rod is that when being pushed - the tip collappses and becomes irrelevent during the cast.

This was most obvious to me when casting a 400gr full sink ilne with my #10 CTS Affinity-X.  I could easily feel that the tip was collapsing and not contributing to the cast.

The FSA - on the otherhand - is able to be pushed and the tip remains engaged.  

 

Mike,

The #10 CTS Affinity-M, while not a production rod - flexes quite deep.  IMO - it lacks the "crispness" of the other CTS 10 wts.

IMO - if one needs a rod with muscle - and very tight loops - the #9 CTS FSA is arguably the best rod I have ever casted.

Herb

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12 hours ago, HL said:

 

My issue with a fast blank/rod is that when being pushed - the tip collappses and becomes irrelevent during the cast.

 

 

 Hi Herb

I struggle with the idea that the tip of a fast rod becomes irrelevant.

 

When a rod is accelerated or decelerated the load changes from the butt to the tip because the butt is where the force doing the work is applied.

Fast action vs Moderate action blanks may carry that load differently but if they are of the same power then by definition they will bend the same amount (but different shape) under any given load.  

That bend reflects stored energy and almost all of it ends up being transferred back to the line regardless of whether the rod is fast or moderate action.  The tip of a fast action rod is involved in this transfer just as importantly as that of a moderate action rod.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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35 mins ago, numbskull said:

 

 Hi Herb

I struggle with the idea that the tip of a fast rod becomes irrelevant.

 

When a rod is accelerated or decelerated the load changes from the butt to the tip because the butt is where the force doing the work is applied.

Fast action vs Moderate action blanks may carry that load differently but if they are of the same power then by definition they will bend the same amount (but different shape) under any given load.  

That bend reflects stored energy and almost all of it ends up being transferred back to the line regardless of whether the rod is fast or moderate action.  The tip of a fast action rod is involved in this transfer just as importantly as that of a moderate action rod.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In terms of absolute conservation of energy and transfer from rod to fly line, I think you're probably right.

 

The important thing to consider is the shape of the loop. Just because the fly line is traveling with the same energy, doesn't mean that the loop is behaving the same way when cast with one style of rod vs another. A knotted up lump can travel with the same amount of energy as an open, narrow loop.

 

Herb, I don't think the tip becomes irrelevant. Because if you take the tip section off that fast rod and make the same cast, it's going to look and feel very different than the cast you're making with a 9ft rod. However, when you're using a fast rod to cast a heavy (overweight) line, then you have to be careful to engage the mid/butt of the rod, so the load is distributed away from the tip.

 

I believe this is easier to do with a moderate action rod, because you just feel more of what's going on in the butt, and there isn't such a big stiffness difference between the butt and the tip. On some fast rods, the tip feels like it's living a completely different life than the butt. Shooting heads are also more tiring to cast with a fast rod, because it stiffens up pretty high on the blank. So, the rod is a longer level exerting force on your wrist and arm. IMO, overweight lines are less tiring to cast on a deep-flexing rod, even when the overall power between the fast and moderate rod is the same.

 

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1 hour ago, numbskull said:

 

 Hi Herb

I struggle with the idea that the tip of a fast rod becomes irrelevant.

 

When a rod is accelerated or decelerated the load changes from the butt to the tip because the butt is where the force doing the work is applied.

Fast action vs Moderate action blanks may carry that load differently but if they are of the same power then by definition they will bend the same amount (but different shape) under any given load.  

That bend reflects stored energy and almost all of it ends up being transferred back to the line regardless of whether the rod is fast or moderate action.  The tip of a fast action rod is involved in this transfer just as importantly as that of a moderate action rod.  

 

I agree with Numbskull. The is involved at times and then flattens out but will again be involved at the end of the forecast as energy is transferred towards the tip again.

 

My wife took some pics of me casting last fall. In some, you can the tip being loaded, in others, yes the tip is now ‘flat’ but the rod is loaded further down the blank which reverses when coming forward.

 

 

1drewfishing-344.jpg

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5drewfishing-364.jpg

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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1 hour ago, iklu said:

 

The important thing to consider is the shape of the loop. Just because the fly line is traveling with the same energy, doesn't mean that the loop is behaving the same way when cast with one style of rod vs another. A knotted up lump can travel with the same amount of energy as an open, narrow loop.

 

 

Sorry, I disagree.  Strongly.

 

The importance of loops is, I think, badly oversold and poorly understood.  The loop does not pull the cast through the air.   Rather, the driver of the fly line's flight is the momentum in the fly leg........nothing else.  

It took me a lot of years to learn this.  

The success of  a distance cast  is determined first and foremost by how much momentum you can impart into the line that is directed towards target in 3 dimensions and in line with the line preceding it.

Sure a bad loop can ruin a cast or destroy a presentation, but a beautiful loop is going nowhere if the momentum in the fly leg is inadequate or misdirected.  For that matter, a beautiful loop will collapse and drop like a stone in an instant if rod leg tension is removed.  On the flip side, most of us have thrown a tailing loop that tangles in the line, destroys the loop, but the line still snaps tight hard enough to almost pull the rod from our hand.  

 

Watch a competition distance cast.  At loop formation their loops are huge.  As the cast proceeds the enormous fly leg momentum sucks the rod leg up and the loop morphs into a point.  The small loop is the result, not the root of the cast's success.  

 

If one wants to cast far, stop watching  loops and start watching fly legs.  Get it long, straight, and moving fast at your target (i.e., loaded with well directed momentum).  When you can do that, then work on manipulating rod leg tension by where you position the rod after loop formation.  You'll find that nice loops just happen.

 

PS.   You are not going to get your fly leg straight going forward until you learn to position straight and pointed at the forward target when it is behind you.

 

  

 

  

 

 

Edited by numbskull
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