Anyone know the reasoning for starting the full NJ tog season so much later than NY, CT, RI, MA?

[CWitek]

On 11/18/2023 at 12:03 PM, gellfex said:

Pretty sure Tog migrate just as much as fluke, but I'm no expert on this.

They don't.  Fluke migrate inshore and offshore, but also north/south, while tautog are much more local, moving inshore and off in response to water temperatures.

[gellfex]

1 min ago, CWitek said:

Not for the commercial fleet, but for the for-hires,  The party and charter boat industry is the single biggest influence on New Jersey fishery management.

So why start a mont later than the rest of the NE?

[CWitek]

4 mins ago, gellfex said:

So why start a mont later than the rest of the NE?

Gives them a winter fishery,.

 

Tautog are managed by the ASMFC.  They don't migrate long distances, so they're managed as three different stocks:  Massachusetts/Rhode Island, Long Island Sound, New York Bight, and Delaware/Maryland/Virginia (NC might also be in the latter group).

 

When Amendment 1 to the Interstate Fishery Management Plan for Tautog was adopted in October 2017, all of the stocks, save for Massachusetts/Rhode Island, were overfished, and if I recall correcly, also subject to overfishiing *that might not have been the case with the southernmost stock).  So each region with an overfished stock/overfishing had to take a cutback intended to end overfishing and rebuild the stock.

 

So to answer the first part of the question, New Jersey's regulations will be different from everywhere else, other than South Shore Long Island, because all of the other places are in different regions, and so have different management schemes.

 

Add to that the fact that the ASMFC allowed the states to decide how they would achieve the needed harvest reduction.  Managers have three parameters to play with, which balance against one another to reach a desired goal.  They are bag limit, size limit, and season.  A higher bag limit requires a shorter season and/or a larger minimum size, etc.

 

So if you want to maintain a winter season, cloised only during March, and you want to keep the bag limit relatively high--4 or 5 fish--you have to cut back somewhere, and that's with a late opener.  But NJ also has the long 1-fish season, which runs from August 1-November 15, which doesn't allow any one fishermen to take many fish, but which can allow fish to add up in the aggregate. 

 

If you compare New Jersey's season with New York, New Jersey has some sort of tautog fishery running for most of the year, from January 1-February 28, April 1-30, August 1-November 15, and November 16-December 31--a total of 210 days of season, with 124 days of those allowing a 4 or 5 fish bag--and New Jersey fishes on a 15-inch tautog..  New York's fishery, on the other hand, has a season that runs from April 1-April 30, and again from October 15-December 22, a total of just 98 days--less than half the length of New Jersey's season--plus while New Jersey has a 4-fish bag limit in April, New York's limit is 2, and when New Jersey has a 5-fish bag limit after November 16, New York's limit is 4, although New York's  limit is also 4 from October 15-November 14, whenn New Jersey's limit is 1, but also New York fishes on a 16-inch tautog, an inch larger than New Jersey's, and with so many shorts and just-legal fish around, that extra inch is a meaningful restricction.

 

Tnus, New Jersey anglers get 124 days of fishing with a 4 or 5 fish bag, while New York anglers get just 98 days of season with a 2 or 4 fish bag, and only 68 days of that season includes a 4-fish bag.  Plus New Jersey's minimum size is an inch smaller.  Plus New Jersey has a late summer/early fall season when New York anglers can't retain tautog at all, even if the bag is only a single fish.  Put all of those factors together, and the reason for New Jersey's later start is easy to understand.  In fact, put all of the factors together, and New Jersey's tautog antlers seem to have things pretty good.

[gellfex]

15 mins ago, CWitek said:

Gives them a winter fishery,.

 

Tautog are managed by the ASMFC.  They don't migrate long distances, so they're managed as three different stocks:  Massachusetts/Rhode Island, Long Island Sound, New York Bight, and Delaware/Maryland/Virginia (NC might also be in the latter group).

 

When Amendment 1 to the Interstate Fishery Management Plan for Tautog was adopted in October 2017, all of the stocks, save for Massachusetts/Rhode Island, were overfished, and if I recall correcly, also subject to overfishiing *that might not have been the case with the southernmost stock).  So each region with an overfished stock/overfishing had to take a cutback intended to end overfishing and rebuild the stock.

 

So to answer the first part of the question, New Jersey's regulations will be different from everywhere else, other than South Shore Long Island, because all of the other places are in different regions, and so have different management schemes.

 

Add to that the fact that the ASMFC allowed the states to decide how they would achieve the needed harvest reduction.  Managers have three parameters to play with, which balance against one another to reach a desired goal.  They are bag limit, size limit, and season.  A higher bag limit requires a shorter season and/or a larger minimum size, etc.

 

So if you want to maintain a winter season, cloised only during March, and you want to keep the bag limit relatively high--4 or 5 fish--you have to cut back somewhere, and that's with a late opener.  But NJ also has the long 1-fish season, which runs from August 1-November 15, which doesn't allow any one fishermen to take many fish, but which can allow fish to add up in the aggregate. 

 

If you compare New Jersey's season with New York, New Jersey has some sort of tautog fishery running for most of the year, from January 1-February 28, April 1-30, August 1-November 15, and November 16-December 31--a total of 210 days of season, with 124 days of those allowing a 4 or 5 fish bag--and New Jersey fishes on a 15-inch tautog..  New York's fishery, on the other hand, has a season that runs from April 1-April 30, and again from October 15-December 22, a total of just 98 days--less than half the length of New Jersey's season--plus while New Jersey has a 4-fish bag limit in April, New York's limit is 2, and when New Jersey has a 5-fish bag limit after November 16, New York's limit is 4, although New York's  limit is also 4 from October 15-November 14, whenn New Jersey's limit is 1, but also New York fishes on a 16-inch tautog, an inch larger than New Jersey's, and with so many shorts and just-legal fish around, that extra inch is a meaningful restricction.

 

Tnus, New Jersey anglers get 124 days of fishing with a 4 or 5 fish bag, while New York anglers get just 98 days of season with a 2 or 4 fish bag, and only 68 days of that season includes a 4-fish bag.  Plus New Jersey's minimum size is an inch smaller.  Plus New Jersey has a late summer/early fall season when New York anglers can't retain tautog at all, even if the bag is only a single fish.  Put all of those factors together, and the reason for New Jersey's later start is easy to understand.  In fact, put all of the factors together, and New Jersey's tautog antlers seem to have things pretty good.

 

Thanks. Lotta give and take there for sure. The NJ one bag season is strange, who's going to pay for a pile of crabs to fish for one keeper? I once heard it was a concession to spearfishers. But while kayak fishing has gotten more and more popular, doing it in December and January is not a strong option for most. I hate having to travel to NY to tog in October when the weather is mild. 

 

Sure the extra inch for NY is meaningful, but it seems pointless if they are going allow pot trappers, no?

[CWitek]

17 hours ago, gellfex said:

 

Thanks. Lotta give and take there for sure. The NJ one bag season is strange, who's going to pay for a pile of crabs to fish for one keeper? I once heard it was a concession to spearfishers. But while kayak fishing has gotten more and more popular, doing it in December and January is not a strong option for most. I hate having to travel to NY to tog in October when the weather is mild. 

 

Sure the extra inch for NY is meaningful, but it seems pointless if they are going allow pot trappers, no?

I know that Connecticut has the one-fish limit, too.  Spearfishermen might have something to do with it, but giving shore fishermen and casual boat fisherman the chance to keep a legal fish if they happen to catch one while fishing for sea bass or porgies is part of it, too.

 

The potters take fish, but the last time I checked, recreational fishermen are responsible for about 90% of the landings.  Of course, how many of those "recreational" fishermen are actualy selling their fish, and how many fish are being illegally landed by illicit trappers and pinhookers, is a very different question, although the new tagging requirement is making it a little tougher to market illegal fish.

[bbfish]

21 hours ago, gellfex said:

 

Thanks. Lotta give and take there for sure. The NJ one bag season is strange, who's going to pay for a pile of crabs to fish for one keeper? I once heard it was a concession to spearfishers. But while kayak fishing has gotten more and more popular, doing it in December and January is not a strong option for most. I hate having to travel to NY to tog in October when the weather is mild. 

 

Sure the extra inch for NY is meaningful, but it seems pointless if they are going allow pot trappers, no?

 

I havent done it in a while but the late summer 1 bag limit can be alot of fun.  The fish don't see as much pressure and you don't really have to worry about pulling up to your piece and having other guys already on top.  You also don't have to freeze your nuts off.  We didnt worry about the price of crabs, we just picked them ourselves at low tide.  

[ReeferRob]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:28 PM, CWitek said:

They don't.  Fluke migrate inshore and offshore, but also north/south, while tautog are much more local, moving inshore and off in response to water temperatures.

Do you know who is doing Tog research? Which university?

Edited November 21 by ReeferRob

[ExcessiveAngler]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:12 AM, ReeferRob said:

We got over 30 throwbacks yesterday.

 

 I contacted a colleague with your question hoping she can put me in touch with someone doing research on Tog. I suspect they think that Tog spawn a lot longer than other fish, hence the later season start.

I also believe the spawning thing, but we always joke and say, they don’t want us to catch any fish, it’s Jersey lol!

I know they’re supposed to, spawn in the spring, but you would think they are actively spawning now. The male tog that I’m catching now, are spewing all over the place lol. I notice this every year, starting around this time. Seems to happen, right when the water temp really starts to drop.

And that’s exactly how I know, if somebody’s been fishing at my spots too, stuff will be all over the ground lol!

 

 

[CWitek]

19 hours ago, ReeferRob said:

Do you know who is doing Tog research? Which university?

The research isn't centered in a single university.

 

Tautog are an ASMFC-managed fish, and the recent work is being done largely at the state level.  Some characteristics, like the limited extent of tautog migrations, have been known for decades.  I remember talking about it in a high school Oceanography class in 1972.  

 

I have little doubt that there is some university work being done, much of it probably in Sea Grant schoiols.  I'm attaching the link to the last benchmark stock assessment (there have been a number of assessment updates since), which includes a description of the data inputs and contains a list of references.  https://asmfc.org/uploads/file/58caf4502016TautogLIS_NJNYB_Assessment_DeskReviewReport_Final.pdf  ..  You will note that most are references to papers on assessment techniques, and not the tautog itself.

[ReeferRob]

1 hour ago, CWitek said:

The research isn't centered in a single university.

Thank you.

[squidder 329]

NJ has the one fish starting in August I won't even try at my spot. Mid September they start to show mid October the tog are more plentiful. Usually the water temp in November hits the upper 50's mid November they are pretty much gone. What I would like to know or discuss where are they the rest of the time. Are they spread around the inter-coastal are they offshore and come in to bulk up in the fall. Anyone having a resource to read up on their behavior, please share. As I stated before the spot I fish is a tog nursery so my human thought would be they reside there as well.

[gellfex]

7 hours ago, squidder 329 said:

NJ has the one fish starting in August I won't even try at my spot. Mid September they start to show mid October the tog are more plentiful. Usually the water temp in November hits the upper 50's mid November they are pretty much gone. What I would like to know or discuss where are they the rest of the time. Are they spread around the inter-coastal are they offshore and come in to bulk up in the fall. Anyone having a resource to read up on their behavior, please share. As I stated before the spot I fish is a tog nursery so my human thought would be they reside there as well.

That's an interesting timeline. Thanks. It's that "mid november already gone" when the season opens that pisses me off. It's great for the offshore wreck guys, but not if you're limited to inshore like us. This fall was warm, fish were still there in 20 ft or so last week.

[CWitek]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:01 AM, squidder 329 said:

NJ has the one fish starting in August I won't even try at my spot. Mid September they start to show mid October the tog are more plentiful. Usually the water temp in November hits the upper 50's mid November they are pretty much gone. What I would like to know or discuss where are they the rest of the time. Are they spread around the inter-coastal are they offshore and come in to bulk up in the fall. Anyone having a resource to read up on their behavior, please share. As I stated before the spot I fish is a tog nursery so my human thought would be they reside there as well.

I don't have any literature to share.

 

I do know that when I lived in Connecticut, the tautog seemed to scatter on inshore structure during the summer.  We'd occasionally catch them while trolling sandworms along sod banks or boulder fields for bass, or drifting worms under a float for weakfish, during the summer, in less than 10 feet of water.  We used to have winter flounder all summer back in the '60s, and we'd catch the occasional weakfish while fishing for them, too.  There werre some shallow rockpiles--shallow enough that some of the rocks would be out of the water at low tide--and we'd target tautog during the summer in such places, with reasonable success.

 

Even today, during the early tautog season--mid-October--the bite usually starts in shallow water and then moves deeper as the water cools.

 

Not sure whether New Jersey sees the same pattern, but given the lack of tautog on 15-20 fathom wrecks when I'm fishing for sea bass during the summer off central Long Island, I don't think that they're offshore at that time.

[squidder 329]

Thank you for the response Charles. I'm guessing during the summer they move around the inter coastal taking advantage of the smaller crabs and shrimp that are active in the marshes. I may dead stick one of the blue claws chewing my gulp this year. Interesting as well that one caught on the troll as well which infers the tog was free swimming. Speaking of shrimp I wonder if the prey on mantis shrimp. I snagged two mantis shrimp while surf fishing  the same day, never before or after that day. Also heard of tog being caught in the surf, who knows.

[EBHarvey]

Nobody should be compaining about NJ's tog season.

 

you guys get to fish for them 8 months out of the year, most of which you can keep 4 or 5 fish, and at 15"

 

you know what we get in CT?  April, July, and August, when we get to keep 2 fish, then from October 10 to November 28th we can keep 3.  that's it - 4 1/2 months.  and a 16" minimum

 

NJ fishermen are spoiled