overindexing on flyrods and technical data

[puppet]

So much discussion and consideration is given to technical data and debate on fishing blanks, rod components,  rod weight, and rod balance.  

 

Sure it is fun to get into these details, but do the depths we dive into these details really matter?

Are we are victims of the fly fishing industry?

 

In general most of us may never be able to distinguish or utilize the subtle differences that actually do matter in the technology .  I do believe as in any discipline 1-5%  will achieve expert status, but most of us will always meet mediocrity. I know I am in the mediocre category, and have no delusions that it will ever change for me.  I have too many other things in life that demand priority in my focus.

 

Funny truth.

I have been a member of various tenkara forums over the last decade.

They talk about tenkara rods being tip heavy or just heavy in general.

I usually keep my comments to myself....but really???  a 1.5 - 3.0oz tenkara rod casting the equivalent of 15' of 12# monofiliment, and we are discussing how tip heavy a rod is?  I fish one of the heavier tenkara rods and it does not effect my productivity at all.

 

Sometimes I feel the same way about discussion in our flyfishing forums.  When I surfcast(spinning), I am casting an outfit weight around 2 lbs....sometimes throwing 6 oz lures.

 

It illustrates how all of this is relative....and what brainwashing the industry has done to us.  We are deep into their trap.

 

Really the fly fishing companies get deep into the details of things that mostly do not matter.  It is great marketing.  Right up there with thin and light cellphones, that we proceed to put a giant case around.

 

A rod or reel's weight alone is not as important as the whole system that we assemble including the backing and the flyline.  I am not sure if I have ever seen this discussed in detail as it probably undermines most technical debates.

 

When we consider rod/reel weight and tip heaviness, do we neglect consideration that we have a heavy fly line that may be around .75 oz  accelerating through space?   Now that is tip heavy.   And when the line is on the water, again there is a force created by our heavy flylines that make a rod heavy.  I suspect the rod/reel weight really makes little difference.

 

Compared to other casting disciplines this singlehand flyline casting force should really be what we should discuss the most.

 

As @Mike Oliver patiently continues to note:  We should focus more on technique over technology.  I know this is a bit of a killjoy,  but in general we need to ask ourselves why there so much discussion on these tech topics?

 

I own a wide gamut of flyrods from multiple companies and price points.  I did drink the Koolaid. I really see no significant difference in any of them. Some may shine better under certain conditions, but largely they are all within that 90% window of interchangeability.

My only bias preference is in durability which most rods are pretty light on, in terms of the components and modern graphite.  This is relative to spinning gear.  I have to baby my flygear.

 

Recently I had a NFC iconglass 10wt built.  Ironically the builder put the modern cerecoil  guides and rec recoil snakes on it.  It is probably still the heaviest rod I own but casts like an absolute dream.  I do not feel it is heavy at all.

 

We should resist and humbug the flyfishing industry.  Yeah it might be boring to use the same flyrod for decades, but also try to reflect on how much changing equipment really made any difference in your fishing.

 

Edited November 13 by puppet

[SnookFly]

Well said.  Having fun is so much more important than all the tech details. One of my most favorite fly outfits is a fenwich rod found at a garage sale for 5 bucks and matched to a medalist I bought in late 60s. Many good memories and absolutely no idea what it weighs. 

[smath]

2 hours ago, SnookFly said:

Well said.  Having fun is so much more important than all the tech details. One of my most favorite fly outfits is a fenwich rod found at a garage sale for 5 bucks and matched to a medalist I bought in late 60s. Many good memories and absolutely no idea what it weighs. 

Agree with all the above, however, getting lost in the weeds of tech details is part of the fun (as long as we don't take ourselves too seriously).

[surfflyguy]

I for one would not spend 1k dollars for anything made in Asia there I said it 

[Fergal]

6 hours ago, puppet said:

So much discussion and consideration is given to technical data and debate on fishing blanks, rod components,  rod weight, and rod balance.  

 

Sure it is fun to get into these details, but do the depths we dive into these details really matter?

Are we are victims of the fly fishing industry?

 

In general most of us may never be able to distinguish or utilize the subtle differences that actually do matter in the technology .  I do believe as in any discipline 1-5%  will achieve expert status, but most of us will always meet mediocrity. I know I am in the mediocre category, and have no delusions that it will ever change for me.  I have too many other things in life that demand priority in my focus.

 

Funny truth.

I have been a member of various tenkara forums over the last decade.

They talk about tenkara rods being tip heavy or just heavy in general.

I usually keep my comments to myself....but really???  a 1.5 - 3.0oz tenkara rod casting the equivalent of 15' of 12# monofiliment, and we are discussing how tip heavy a rod is?  I fish one of the heavier tenkara rods and it does not effect my productivity at all.

 

Sometimes I feel the same way about discussion in our flyfishing forums.  When I surfcast(spinning), I am casting an outfit weight around 2 lbs....sometimes throwing 6 oz lures.

 

It illustrates how all of this is relative....and what brainwashing the industry has done to us.  We are deep into their trap.

 

Really the fly fishing companies get deep into the details of things that mostly do not matter.  It is great marketing.  Right up there with thin and light cellphones, that we proceed to put a giant case around.

 

A rod or reel's weight alone is not as important as the whole system that we assemble including the backing and the flyline.  I am not sure if I have ever seen this discussed in detail as it probably undermines most technical debates.

 

When we consider rod/reel weight and tip heaviness, do we neglect consideration that we have a heavy fly line that may be around .75 oz  accelerating through space?   Now that is tip heavy.   And when the line is on the water, again there is a force created by our heavy flylines that make a rod heavy.  I suspect the rod/reel weight really makes little difference.

 

Compared to other casting disciplines this singlehand flyline casting force should really be what we should discuss the most.

 

As @Mike Oliver patiently continues to note:  We should focus more on technique over technology.  I know this is a bit of a killjoy,  but in general we need to ask ourselves why there so much discussion on these tech topics?

 

I own a wide gamut of flyrods from multiple companies and price points.  I did drink the Koolaid. I really see no significant difference in any of them. Some may shine better under certain conditions, but largely they are all within that 90% window of interchangeability.

My only bias preference is in durability which most rods are pretty light on, in terms of the components and modern graphite.  This is relative to spinning gear.  I have to baby my flygear.

 

Recently I had a NFC iconglass 10wt built.  Ironically the builder put the modern cerecoil  guides and rec recoil snakes on it.  It is probably still the heaviest rod I own but casts like an absolute dream.  I do not feel it is heavy at all.

 

We should resist and humbug the flyfishing industry.  Yeah it might be boring to use the same flyrod for decades, but also try to reflect on how much changing equipment really made any difference in your fishing.

 

 

I think that weight matters but it depends on the type of fishing that you do. Flats/sight casting, it doesn’t matter. How many casts is one going to make in a day? Up here, would I throw a 10wt with a Mako on it all day for albies, no friggin way. My neck hurts thinking about it. But pair that rod with a Riptide or similar, no problem at all.

 

Regarding fly outfit weight vs a spin rod - they really can’t be compared. First, one uses two hands/arms, the other only one. Second, one utilizes power more so than the other, the other requires much more skill.

 

I don’t consider flyrods any more delicate than comparable spin/casting rods, fly outfits are just in another class. A little more wall thickness on a spinning blank probably won’t be noticed but on a fly rod it will add weight and impede action. A ten wt line weighs ~.65oz, so compare a 10wt to any 9’ spin rod that throws 1/2-1oz, I think those rods will be of equal durability. 

 

The fly industry, I don’t think that there’s been any significant changes in materials or tech in the last 20 years or so. Most rods are still about the same weight as they were then. I think the small decreases in rod weight today vs the past is more likely due to improvements in components vs the actual blanks. But admitting that doesn’t help much with sales….

 

 

[donkeywrangler]

I've been itching to build a new 5wt to take advantage of the "new technology"...then this weekend I broke out my 20+ year old orvis trident 5 wt and was throwing it 100ft with a popper! Made me rethink that itch and saved me several hundred dollars!

[Fergal]

I think the rod companies could change the color of the blank, thread wraps and different components every 3-5 years and we’d never know the difference. 
 

 

[HL]

Hi Guys.

I know that people rage against Sage for the unending model changes - just to sell more fly rods at ever increasing prices.

 

But in their defense - Stephen Pratt - owner of CTS - tweaks his designs often enough that I will not stock blanks. So, my customers wait for their blanks to be rolled, baked and painted.

 

An example: I designed a blank using CTS' Custom Design Program - FSA Model.

When I build a rod that I like - I always make a dupe just incase.

I built the two rods 2 years apart - and I can notice the impovement -albeit slight - in the new rod.

I grant you - not enough difference in performance to go out and pay $1,000 for a new factory rod.

 

That being said - no two fly rods of the same model will be EXACTLY allike even if made the same day.

But I don't think one would notice that difference.

Herb

[Mike Oliver]

This past two weeks I gave been in intense discussion with slip n slide about fishing technique focusing on quality of drift ,length of drift. Control.of drift and depth.of drift plus how we mount our egg flies. How we strike into a bite how we hurtle off down current with a very low rod angle all the time keeping tight. This is relevant stuff to actually catching a fish. The discussions surrounding rod mass and component mass have no bearing on success or failure. We looked hard to smooth line release to the drift and what affected that as drift is critical to catching success. We looked at number of guides and design and material. The size is very important. No point going to sexy small trying to save a tiny bit of weight because you think you need a faster recovering  rod which might give you a few inches of extra range. Ice is an issue in the guides Rec recoils will rid themselves way easier than SL Fuji ceramic or horrible snakes. Snake guides are very poor when feeding  line and making stack mends. I don't like SL REC wire guides for wear but they are best for the application. We both fished switch rids me a Sage Igniter 11 9" 7 wt slip n slide an 11 ' 6 wt NFC. Both rods are excellent but for Casting large shot carrying indicators with a fly line and making  up to 100 foot drifts the NFC rod had the edge. Why. Rec big enough guides fitted  great smooth delivery of line. The snakes on my Sage are too small and snakes are lousy when feeding  line. The rod action on the NFC is simply perfect. The tip is quite soft. This helps making  stack mends. It takes the initial surge from the fish just before the midsection comes into play. Midsection gives great control over what is often a chaotic fish fight. Then we discussed our lines. I used a 7wt Rio singe hand spey line and boy can this roll cast or double spey cast a bobber holding  6 no 4 lead shot and a bead. I could reach far side runs easier with the Sage  rod and this line easier than with the NFC teamed with a brilliant SA long Toran line. But the Spey line is a pig to feed out of the guides unless all the head is cast. If more than the head is cast the thin running  line can not mend the head. The SA line casts ok but mends easily behind the bobber and feeds much better making  stack mends. Head length is a compromise and choice will depend on river size. Overall Slip and Sides outfit was superior to mine and he made the better drifts.  He is pretty good to. Please note we did not care a fig about weight of rod or components all we cared about was quality of the drift which is key. Sure over the winter I will obtain the SA fly line plus other spey shooting heads around 42 feet long to establish what is the best solution.  I won't go into the bobber design developed by Slip or his shotting pattern and the rationale for that or his three part leader construction. One disturbing  aspect of Steelhead fishing is the high number of fish which come off. So I am challenging the defacto way of arranging the bead and hook. I am now hair rigging  the plastic bead which I believe will improve the quality of the hook set plus it is now the bead which trickles over the bottom with the hook above which should lead to reduced snagging.   It is a better presentation to. Don't we think that this kind of thinking  is worth way more than agonising over rod and component mass which have little bearing  on what we catch. NFC have a sale on right now. Those very sweet fit for purpose switch rod blanks have been reduced from €250 to $125 and delivery is free. Plus made in American and lead times short. It was a no brainer for me to order all three for

small money as I have this terrible thirst to find out what rods can do. But the 11' 6 wt is the one I know for sure works wonderfully well. Lastly to get 100 foot drifts you can't just pull line off your reel as you drift especially if the current is fast or you interfere with the drift. You strip it off your reel and dump it into the current. You can ignore all of this and limit yourselves to the ubiquitous 30 foot flop cast upstream and drift 30 feet downstream irrespective of where the good water is. Please beam me up Scotty.

Oly

Edited November 15 by Mike Oliver

[smath]

34 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

I am now hair rigging  the plastic bead which I believe will improve the quality of the hook set

Mike, thanks for a very interesting discussion.

 

I've never heard of a hair rig. Is that where the bead is anchored a couple of inches above the hook? I've heard this called an Alaska rig.

 

I'll be interested to hear more from you about the lines you like for this kind of fishing. I've been fishing an SA Skagit Lite integrated line with a sink tip for single-hand casting for steelhead. It's got a short head and works great for me on smaller streams. Roll casts and single hand spey casts are effortless with weighted flies. I tried the SA Scandi Lite line but it didn't have the mass to turn over weighted flies. These lines have a light running line and have the same problem you had with mending. I fish a Rio Switchchucker on my two-handed rod and like that quite well.

[Mike Oliver]

smath sorry I am unable to take a picture and post my hair rig. Ok I think I can explain it though. At the end.if.your tippet you tye a hook on.Then to the bend of that hook you tye a short length of tippet. You peg your plastic bead so it is about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the hook bend. It is like NZ style. Ok you can vary that distance to find out what works best. I tie a few overhand knots on the end of the line holding  the bead to help keeping the bead from sliding off if you brush a snag.

With the hair rig I believe we are more likely to hook the fish inside the mouth and lose less fish. We get better presentation as the egg is able to fish closer to the bottom. 

The normal way is to fit the bead first then tie on the hook which is placed about 1.5 inches away from the bead. This means the hook is more likely to snag bottom plus when we set the hook it is more likely to hook the outside of the mouth or not set at all.

My first attempt at American style heavy indicator fishing was with a skagit line as that is what I had on my reel. It was too thick to feed well outside the guides into the drift. Once outside impossible to mend it. Great for casting g heavy rigs and very short close quarter fishing. On the Catt often we had to cast to runs on the other side of the river meaning we needed a different fly line to both feed and mend well. For me the Catt is too wide to fish well with a single hander. Smaller rivers single hander of course rules. The fly line when making long drifts needs to be integrated. Head and separate running running  line does not work for me.

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

Edited November 16 by Mike Oliver

[puppet]

@Mike Oliver
most excellent rant and trip down the rabbit hole.

 

Gear and component choices match application and conditions. There is no generic rule of thumb in constructing a rig and it's pointless to discuss gear details without specific application. They are intertwined and complicated.

 

 

 

 

[bmac]

Many years ago, while chasing my dream of becoming a better fly fisherman, I made the error many of us have in thinking that a better, more expensive rod would make that dream a reality.  I bought a Sage RPL+ nine foot five weight that cost just a shade over $500 at the time.  An expense I really couldn't afford then.  It was a good rod, and I could throw a fair amount of line with it.  The reality, as Lefty Kreh is reported to have said, was I could just throw bad casts further.  Of course I couldn't wait to show that rod to a fishing buddy of mine, an older gentleman who was a superb fly angler.  He was happy for me but not overly impressed.  We fished smallmouth for a couple hours that afternoon and took a short break up on the bank.  He picked my rod up, inspected it a bit, then he put it down.  Then he said something I'll never forget.  "You know, a five hundred dollar rod in the hands of a hundred dollar caster like you is a hundred dollar rod."  

 

Now that's a good story, and I've told it to many of my fishing friends over the years.  There is a lot of truth in it.  Yet I'd still argue that a high quality rod can help a great deal.  But only with proper technique and, as mentioned earlier in the thread, properly matched fly line and leader for the type of fishing you are doing.  IMO, the major rod manufacturers over emphasize casting performance and distance over all other qualities.  That's fine if you are flats fishing or fishing from a boat where casting distance can make a big difference and all the angler has to do is cast and strip.  That's all well and good, but that's just a thin slice of the fly fishing universe even if it's what the majority of salt water fly anglers do.  Many of those high octane rods that throw tight loops and 100 foot casts all by themselves do not perform well when fishing in current.  

[Mike Oliver]

Those.$1000 rods don't.throw.tight.loops.and 100 foot casts but many belive.they can all.by.them selves. Its how the makers sell them.to us weak egocentric.BS males. Lol

[HL]

Hey guys - I'm reading this with incredulity - Mike, do you remember your #10 Sage Xi1 that you could'nt load? Remember replaceing it with the CTS Affinity-MX #10 - that you use to this day.

The Sage Xi ws a lousy rod - I owned one also for 1 week.

Remember your comment about the Sage Ignighter #6: "the best fly rod that you ever casted".

My CTS FSA Design out casts the CTS Affinity-X - per good casters who own both.

 

So, rods do matter!!

Yes - casting technique is paramount - but it's only part of the equasion.

 

At the risk of overstating my welcome - there are rods as good as your outfront TH - but none better - and many inferior.

Herb

 

Edited November 17 by HL