Two Hand Spey Casting

[Jim DE]

23 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Two hand rods and the ocean is just about in my experience the least understood section of fly casting.  Especially when it comes to the reality of it and the appropriate gear. I have done my best to share knowledge but might as well  travelled to the moon and back for the impact it has had. Why do I bother well, because I care. Answers don’t necessarily come without cost be they financial or at personal cost and trial and error because the ditch being dug is a new trench.

 

mikey

   

and the truth shall set you free! 
 

Nah, I bought a boat, moved to Florida, and found freedom.     Enlightening became too exhausting in the end…. Now I ride to the fish, see them first on thousands of dollars electronics, pick the fish on the screen I want to hook at the moment, and cast to it at the depth I know it’s at. Too easy? Say that after a hour drive, a boat ride of half that, on the casting deck at over 70 years of age with 50 to near 100lbs of fish on the other end of your 12wt line. They are like vitamins at my age; “one a day will do ya!”

 

 

 I always have said I fish to catch not cast!! 

Edited October 8 by Jim DE

[reel em in]

7 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Yes but do you understand the reply. I am still confused by your question. 
 If spey for rivers it makes sense. Spey for the ocean if Out Front it is a fantasy . If an inlet or estuary it will work.  But overhead is the cast which gives maximum tension and maximum range 

I saw your comments on Instructors as pretty negative. We are the guys who are most likely to be able to give the best answer . Love or hate us. I took it personally. Any qualified Instructor would been able to have addressed your question. If you google up guys like Jim Fearn and Simon Gawsesworth, and Klaus Fremor doing his demo in the USA it’s good stuff. I know few guys who fish rivers who also ply their trade in the ocean. Two hand rods and the ocean is just about in my experience the least understood section of fly casting.  Especially when it comes to the reality of it and the appropriate gear. I have done my best to share knowledge but might as well  travelled to the moon and back for the impact it has had. Why do I bother well, because I care. Answers don’t necessarily come without cost be they financial or at personal cost and trial and error because the ditch being dug is a new trench.

 

mikey

I’m out fly fishing and these wind gusts are a challenge. 
I will address your questions when I get a chance. 
No rivers for me. I missed that boat. All out front and back bay. 

Still, no fly instructors for me. Too much BS.  Don’t take it personally.  
I drive the beach out front low tide, favorable wind, pockets of water. I will Spey cast. I have done it, but the distance is not to my satisfaction, but I will get there.

That’s why I thought I would ask here. Something different

Overhand casting no problem

Tom

 

Here’s something

10’ 4” 200 grain single hand Spey rod. Good distance, single hand Spey casting. I said to myself, let me try overhead casting 

Unbelievable distance with ease.

I just ordered an eight weight 350 grain Puts the 9 ft foot single hand rods to shame. Yes, wind is a factor.

[Panzon]

13 mins ago, Jim DE said:

Enlightening became too exhausting in the end…. 

100%

[Killiefish]

My suggestion for a short scandi head to try to find is the Scientific Anglers UST (Ultimate Scandi Taper) Short (the last word is key because in the situations you are fishing and length of rod, a 35ft head is just about ideal, any longer - maybe not so much).  Could be shorter though (33ft is my preference).  I believe that these are probably the best solution, but are now very hard to find.  The 8/9 short one is perhaps the one to look for as I believe its 33ft length total, and weighs 525g or something like that.  For touch and go, single spey, scandi with reasonably sized flies it can't be beat, especially if you are good at timing the touchdown and take-off, and are not dealing with heavy surf.

 

Because these have sinking front ends, a long leader is not especially required or advised.  I find 4-5ft of 20lb mono works fine, and that allows use of slightly larger or bulkier flies than one would normally use for scandi/underhand casting.  The main change you will want to make (I've seen your cast) is to use more lower hand power.

 

Attached shows the 9/10 UST short in a float/sink version.  These do not need to be used with sink tips at all (Mike said: "They won't lift heavy sink tips" and he's right, but that won't matter b/c the float/sink and int/sink versions have sinking front sections dialed in).

 

The question about Skagit vs. Scandi casting can be easily answered if you search Simon Gawesworth's videos or go to Spey+pages+dotcom.

[Fergal]

3 hours ago, yarddog59 said:

Tom,

Thanks again and shoot from the hip, as I have a well tested hazardous environmental coating and can't be overinsulted! Experience is the best teacher, thats why I ask. I had been using a Loomis 9 foot single hand 10 weight outfront for many years, and believed the T&T TH overhead surf could  be an upgrade. On bluebird days outfront it has been with a ridge running line FIST head and various tips.  Problem is all the loop to loop connections prevent working the fly offering all the way in to the lip, without bringing the loops throught the guides. Last fall run I had several big ones hooked up with the loops insid the guides and the rod tip. I'm experimenting with intgegrated line as I go, but with not as much distance as the skagit mix. Breaking things can happen but I'm committed.

YD

Why is this a problem? I fish heads on a SH, routinely work in tight, have had many albacore hit close where the loop-loop is well within the guides without any issues.

[reel em in]

1 hour ago, Killiefish said:

My suggestion for a short scandi head to try to find is the Scientific Anglers UST (Ultimate Scandi Taper) Short (the last word is key because in the situations you are fishing and length of rod, a 35ft head is just about ideal, any longer - maybe not so much).  Could be shorter though (33ft is my preference).  I believe that these are probably the best solution, but are now very hard to find.  The 8/9 short one is perhaps the one to look for as I believe its 33ft length total, and weighs 525g or something like that.  For touch and go, single spey, scandi with reasonably sized flies it can't be beat, especially if you are good at timing the touchdown and take-off, and are not dealing with heavy surf.

 

Because these have sinking front ends, a long leader is not especially required or advised.  I find 4-5ft of 20lb mono works fine, and that allows use of slightly larger or bulkier flies than one would normally use for scandi/underhand casting.  The main change you will want to make (I've seen your cast) is to use more lower hand power.

 

Attached shows the 9/10 UST short in a float/sink version.  These do not need to be used with sink tips at all (Mike said: "They won't lift heavy sink tips" and he's right, but that won't matter b/c the float/sink and int/sink versions have sinking front sections dialed in).

 

The question about Skagit vs. Scandi casting can be easily answered if you search Simon Gawesworth's videos or go to Spey+pages+dotcom.

Nice post

Skagit vs Scandi is not a problem. 
A long time ago I cut out all videos. 
I just go out and do it. No videos. No instructors. 
You can do Skagit or Scandi casting in the surf. It’s just a matter of timing the wave. Sure your not going to get the distance of overhead casting that’s why it’s better in the back bay.

 

Here  is a picture of the surf I am Skagit, or scandi casting in. 
You can see the timing of the waves. Mid incoming tide. 3 hr before high tide. 

 

Edited October 8 by reel em in

[Mike Oliver]

Try a jump roll or a Perry Poke. But none of the spey family of casts I fear will give you what you are seeking performance wise. The best cast for performance by a country mile is the overhead. If it is really just a fun thing then enjoy.

 

 

mike 

[reel em in]

54 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Try a jump roll or a Perry Poke. But none of the spey family of casts I fear will give you what you are seeking performance wise. The best cast for performance by a country mile is the overhead. If it is really just a fun thing then enjoy.

 

 

mike 

 

54 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Try a jump roll or a Perry Poke. But none of the spey family of casts I fear will give you what you are seeking performance wise. The best cast for performance by a country mile is the overhead. If it is really just a fun thing then enjoy.

 

 

mike 

Hello, Mike
Out there this morning at low tide spey casting in pockets of water.

My set up

13 ft Spey rod 

Short belly 625 gr Spey line with a 46 ft head

T11 Mow tip 10 ft

6 ft 2 pc leader 

 

62 ft out side of tip with leader 

Running line is stripped into line tray

Time the waves cast out the 62 ft head 

Time it when line hits the water delay a couple seconds 

A Spey back cast D loop

Forward cast 

Over 100 ft cast 

Fish would have to be tight  to the beach. 

Yes, overhead casting is better. More distance. 

Picture of the surf at dead low tide. 

 

Also casting that 10’ 4” Spey rod 230 grain Spey line over head. 

One back cast and a haul amazing distance. Puts my 9 ft single hand to shame. 

 

Edited October 9 by reel em in

[reel em in]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:21 PM, Mike Oliver said:

Are you looking to spey cast in the surf. You can try.but will get frustrated by surf drowning  your anchor or making effective anchor placement very difficult. Even rippled water makes spey casting difficult. The cast which gives most. tension and performance is the overhead..Neither a spey line or scandi lines are good choices for overhead casting. 

13 foot rod and 625 grains is not going to be great for overhead it is overloaded. 625 might be ok n for skagit work. But skagit in the surf would be a comedy.

 

Mike

See above post. 

[yarddog59]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:30 PM, Fergal said:

Why is this a problem? I fish heads on a SH, routinely work in tight, have had many albacore hit close where the loop-loop is well within the guides without any issues.

 

A better explanation of the problems I have experienced , from someone I respect, about the the Two Handed overhead cast in the surf using several loop to loop connections:

 

To recap - 10' to 18' Tips, 22.5' to 24' Heads - providing you with the ability to bring 32.5' to 42' castable artillery to bare. On the T&T 11' blank, the 450 Grain Head will work, But, you could go up to 480 or even 510 Grains and be very happy. When you're not taking any back casts, you can seriously overload.

 

You make your Spey Cast and form your D-Loop, then launch it. It's not complicated. Just chuck the D-Loop off to the side and behind, and power forward. Also practice change of direction casts, so you can not only fish down and accross but up and accross (gives the head extra time to get down in really fast current). 

 

Drawbacks to the system? Unlike a simple D/C Integrated line, which is seamless in it's construciton and ideal for overhead casting - and is also ideal for retrieving all the way back to your position, Two-Handed Rods don't work well doing this and SKAGIT systems aren't designed "to do" this. They are better suited for swinging through zones, feeding some running line out (or casting it) and then retrieving only the running line. You never bring the Head back into the rod tip unless you're bringing in a fish. 

 

There is a Loop to Loop connection and it's not designed to be brought in and let out a hundred times during an outing. Basically, the head stays out of the tip throughout all casting maneuvers. 

 

The SKAGIT system IS designed to get the most out of a two-handed rod though. I highly recommend it for areas where you can deploy it. Otherwise, fish longer bellied Intermedaites and 30' to 35' D/C lines with single handed rods - they have the advantage of playing flies all the way home and so very many fish are caught as they pursue the fleeing imitation (as if it were the Real-McCoy). Takes often happen almost on the beach. 

 

What we need in the industry is better thought out systems for two handed rods.  One thing IS absolutely certain. Not a single company has even remotely put it all together  with fly lines yet for two-handed  surf-fly-fishing. The industry has  completely missed the boat. 

 

 

 

[reel em in]

.

Edited October 10 by reel em in

[Mike Oliver]

Yarddog they chose to miss the boat because the potential volume is way too small

[yarddog59]

Mike

Understood. YOU are appreciated.

YD

[Mike Oliver]

I have tried to get line makers to help but so far no cigar. I have potential with a new developing relationship. To maybe change that.

 

Vision Hybrid lines with their tips  can make into a reasonable overhead line. You probably don't have Vision in the USA but a quick Google and you can find in the UK. Your strong dollar makes shopping with us nice. If push comes to shove I can get what you want and mail.it to you. Pay.pal can sort out the financial. What I can't do is remove the Vat tax which.is why its best to buy direct. Glasgow Angling is a good supplier. 

 

Mike.

[sms]

On 10/8/2023 at 2:06 PM, Mike Oliver said:

Scandi lines are simply shooting heads around 35 feet long attached to a suitable running line of choice.  They are typically lighter than a spey line to be used on the same rod. They are designed for airborne.anchor casts although you can still use sustained anchor type casts. They are designed for stealth and they are used with long leaders to get the anchoring done. They are best used with small flies. They won't lift heavy sink tips. You should if you are going to shoot line have all the head outside of the rod tip. Advantage over traditional spey line is that you can draw your flies around the pool. Disadvantage is that before you can re cast you have to pull in the running line.

Spey line typically heavier for same rod. All the head is outside of the rod tip unless you are short range casting. Better at sustained anchor casts than scandi. Main advantage is that you dont have to pull in fly line before re casting. 

Hi Mike,

 

There are different scandi tapers. I don't know what you mean by small flies, but I would say scandi is easier than (longer) spey lines. Basically scandi is just a short head spey line and quite often it is a shooting head. Generally, the longer the head the heavier it is for the same rod and thus yes, scandi is lighter than longer spey. With scandi you do not need or can't use sink tips unless you have a multi tip head. I've cut and looped several scandi heads to be able to use different tips (up to about 20ft of T-18). But there are also off the shelf options - for example Guideline 4D multi tip body. Or, you can use for example Rio Gamechanger, but in much lighter weight than skagit recommendation. Back in the day the line machines could not make thin and thick on the same line and thick had to be there for the weight and then for the thin tip one had to use leader (the front taper was short too). Nowadays that is not needed and much shorter leaders work. Also the lines used to be way too light so casting them was PITA, but that was not the intention, but just because the fly line machines could not produce what was the real goal.

With very fast sinking heads (or front parts of them or fast sinking tips if multi tip one) it is not wise to use long leader if the fly needs to go down quickly.

 

I like my scandis quite heavy, "skandit" weight so that both kiss & go and sustained anchor casts work well, just a small changes needed in the casting stroke/rhythm.

 

Cheers