Mike Oliver Posted February 9, 2023 Report Share Posted February 9, 2023 J you must try it. It is not difficult to put ten feet of a 5 wt line into the air with a 9 wt rod. You can do it. You will do it without a single false cast. Twenty is easier. Please surprise yourself. It is a good drill in practice to cast different weight lines on your rod. Mike numbskull 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHarlam Posted February 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2023 18 mins ago, Mike Oliver said: J you must try it. It is not difficult to put ten feet of a 5 wt line into the air with a 9 wt rod. You can do it. You will do it without a single false cast. Twenty is easier. Please surprise yourself. It is a good drill in practice to cast different weight lines on your rod. Mike I'll give it a go! Yea I guess you're right probably not as hard as I'm imagining but will be like casting with a broomstick lol. I'd imagine generating line speed will take some effort though. Sounds like fun...I love casting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted February 9, 2023 Report Share Posted February 9, 2023 J you will honestly. Our vision helps a lot when casting either short lengths of the more balanced line or short and longer lengths of a lighter line. You will be surprised but it is not quite as bad as a broom stick. As a suggestion try making the casts from a very open stance with your feet side by side but comfortably apart. Have the rod tip say a foot from the floor and make side casts. Only front and drop to the floor only back cast and drop to the floor. When you get this down with the lighter line make a complete cast but then stop. Have a think and go again. Then start to raise the plane until you are casting in the near vertical plane. When casting on the side in an open stance you can see the complete rod stroke from start to finish. You can also see the rod tip path and your loop size front and back. This is huge. You tend not to go off track casting this way but if you do you can easily see it. You can sort alignment out by placing say a tennis ball both ends of the cast 180 degrees apart. You can see where you start to peel the line and accelerate it to a stop both ways. Spot any creep. We can’t do this when casting overhead. I use this drill myself a great deal. In fact every time I practice and when I lose form and my loops and or tracking goes to pot. I start with 20 feet of line Then move to 30 when I find form. Later You can add a back cast single haul and Chase then drop to the ground. Front cast haul chase and drop to the ground. These are drills that Master casters use to. The basics are not basic but massive. Not trying to teach you to suck eggs but share the fun of casting. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HL Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) Mike, Paul Arden (Sexyloops) does similar to what you describe. JH, A fishing buddy has your rod. He likes the #9 Bermuda Triangle #9 floater in long (30') head. Also likes te SA Titan clear head intermediate in either a #8 or #9. While not one of my favorites - many people like the Wulff lost tip. You would not overline with that line. The clear intermed head is heavy. Herb Edited February 10, 2023 by HL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyFinaticLou Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, numbskull said: Please don’t take this wrong. The issue is slack in your backcast (or pushing slack into the early phase of the delivery with the line hand ) , not the rod or the line. A heavier line or shorter head or both will hide the issue by giving you more inertia to work against but improving your backcast (and maintaining line tension) will let you use the line you have and throw it a lot farther. Watch your backcast. Learn to throw it straight with a narrow loop and enough line speed to unroll straight with remaining tension and the rod will cast a wide range of lines just fine. At that point you’ll undoubtably find a head length and line weight you prefer, but this is subjective, not some built in fixed property of the rod. I cringe at how long it took me learn this. I spent decades blaming my tools instead. Well stated . . . I Second that (casting) Motion ! My recent personal experience, with choosing some lines for my Sage PAYLOAD 9wt. (Recommended right on the rod blank: 320-370gr.) - - Airflo and Monic (both PVC free, my preferred !) have their own guideline's and there really is NO Industry standard among line and rod manufacturers; well maybe some with SAGE/Reddington & RIO (same Ownership). With Airflo I can “get away with 1 size over, but need 2 sizes over with Monic to meet the Rods suggested criteria ! Gonna be trying a line from Each and compare performance as it applies to MY casting Style(s) . . . Fishing from the shores (beaches) of the FL.’s Gulf. Edit for clarification . . . I’m not passing judgement on your casting ability, I have NO IDEA; but rather am saying for ALL (in general) that what was said that I agree with IS it’s importance. Sometimes we forget to remember to “check” ourselves by looking back instead of relying or assuming our backcasts are Spot On . ME? Guilty as charged, ha ! Edited February 10, 2023 by FlyFinaticLou Clarification Mike Oliver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkeywrangler Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 My CTS #9 seems to fall right in line with the grain rec. Right now on that rod I only use short heads but it loves SA Redfish and its only 260gr at 30ft or the outbound #8 at 330gr for big flies. Mike Oliver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 Heh guys just to play devils advocate Herb has developed a new design. FSA. If you like missile fast action talk to Herb. You have to follow his advice on fly line matching. Best way tell him how many grains you want to cast and he will select the rod. The numbers will not be the same. ZA Fisher has a suit of these blanks and I have the 9 wt. These are truely wonderful blanks if you like very fast quite stiff rods. I do so does ZA. I also love the CTS MX even more than the X. One of the best rods I have ever owned. Always makes me smile every time I fish it. The FSA makes me whistle. oly JHarlam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numbskull Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, JHarlam said: I don't doubt numbskull is a great caster and knows what he's talking about, but I think it's a little presumptuous to just go to casting dynamics - this was a specific question about a rod and line combination. I understand that you want to share your experience that the tools are it's not the highest importance, frankly I agree, but that's simply not the problem here. Sorry JH, but it is the problem. The tells are all over the place in your posts. The initial question itself.......CTS has told you what general line wt the rod casts best. They put it on the label. The grain weight #'s are recommended ranges for 30' shooting heads (or equivalent short headed lines). If the recommended line doesn't work then you bought a rod that is too stiff for your skill level. Either that or you think CTS doesn't know what they are doing? The bit about a 41' headed line casting (more solidly) than a 50' headed line even though the first 30' weigh the same. Cortland doesn't give the total head weight of their line but since the Flats pro is back weighted its a good bet the shorter Cortland's total head weight is similar or less. As a rule a longer head casts farther than a shorter head. If you struggle to cast the longer head it suggests (not proves) that your carry is starting to fail at 50'. Gotta ask why, since 50' is not an particularly long carry. The stuff about struggling with short casts using the Flats pro (again a back weighted line) but casting the whole head better.....and the idea that you need more speed or force to cast a short line. Classic symptoms of someone with a long fixed casting arc, excessive power application, and lack of trajectory adjustment (or tracking adjustment if throwing side arm) for a short line length. With a longer carry/ cast, the long casting arc, flat trajectory, and overpowering are less an issue and the cast goes better. Been there, done that. The whole sad spiel about the rod "not loading". Do you even understand that the line doesn't load the rod? It takes force (acceleration) to load something. Neither the line nor the rod can generate any meaningful force themselves. WE generate the force. WE load the rod. If there is a problem with loading, WE are the cause. And you are wrong, I'm not a great caster. I'm just another chronically mediocre caster who is trying to get better. Turns out it was stupidity, not equipment, that was holding me back and now I'm finally trying seriously to do something about it. I'm happy to report it seems to be helping and I highly recommend you try it as well. Edited February 10, 2023 by numbskull Fergal and Mike Oliver 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, numbskull said: Sorry JH, but it is the problem. The tells are all over the place in your posts. The initial question itself.......CTS has told you what general line wt the rod casts best. They put it on the label. The grain weight #'s are recommended ranges for 30' shooting heads (or equivalent short headed lines). If the recommended line doesn't work then you bought a rod that is too stiff for your skill level. Either that or you think CTS doesn't know what they are doing? The bit about a 41' headed line casting (more solidly) than a 50' headed line even though the first 30' weigh the same. Cortland doesn't give the total head weight of their line but since the Flats pro is back weighted its a good bet the shorter Cortland's total head weight is similar or less. As a rule a longer head casts farther than a shorter head. If you struggle to cast the longer head it suggests (not proves) that your carry is starting to fail at 50'. Gotta ask why, since 50' is not an particularly long carry. The stuff about struggling with short casts using the Flats pro (again a back weighted line) but casting the whole head better.....and the idea that you need more speed or force to cast a short line. Classic symptoms of someone with a long fixed casting arc, excessive power application, and lack of trajectory adjustment (or tracking adjustment if throwing side arm) for a short line length. With a longer carry/ cast, the long casting arc, flat trajectory, and overpowering are less an issue and the cast goes better. Been there, done that. The whole sad spiel about the rod "not loading". Do you even understand that the line doesn't load the rod? It takes force (acceleration) to load something. Neither the line nor the rod can generate any meaningful force themselves. WE generate the force. WE load the rod. If there is a problem with loading, WE are the cause. And you are wrong, I'm not a great caster. I'm just another chronically mediocre caster who is trying to get better. Turns out it was stupidity, not equipment, that was holding me back and now I'm finally trying seriously to do something about it. I'm happy to report it seems to be helping and I highly recommend you try it as well. Although it might have lacked some tact, I tend to agree with everything said here. The fact is that a good caster, and this has been said before, can literally cast any line with any rod, it just requires the technical ability to adjust your stroke to accommodate. JC numbskull and Mike Oliver 2 __________________Our tradition is that of the first man who sneaked off to the creek when the tribe did not really need fish. Haig-Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergal Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, JonC said: Although it might have lacked some tact, I tend to agree with everything said here. The fact is that a good caster, and this has been said before, can literally cast any line with any rod, it just requires the technical ability to adjust your stroke to accommodate. JC While many rods certainly can be cast with almost any line some lines are certainly better than the others, for both the use and the caster’s skill level. JHarlam 1 ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHarlam Posted February 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 31 mins ago, Fergal said: While many rods certainly can be cast with almost any line some lines are certainly better than the others, for both the use and the caster’s skill level. This is all that needs to be said. The flats pro just isn't the right line for me and this rod specifically for the fishing scenarios I'm using it. Numbskull...I don't even want to start responding to your last post you're clearly deadset on telling me I'm wrong and ignoring the initial question. Rods do 'load' and transmit energy. It's classic physics. If they didn't flex you'd lose all the power you're putting in to the rod. The line weight is part of the equation for allowing a nicely balanced power transfer. So are WE! Since all you want to do is critique my knowledge and casting skill I'll take a video for you next time I'm at the park practicing. Then we can have the conversation you want to have. Fergal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergal Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 I have a few flats pro lines, not my favorite, they’re in the backup bin. ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHarlam Posted February 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 3 mins ago, Fergal said: I have a few flats pro lines, not my favorite, they’re in the backup bin. I have one on my 8wt Scott meridian and love the line there. Can throw the whole line with ease. Just think this rod would like a weight class higher do you have a #10 version I could take off your hands? Edited February 10, 2023 by JHarlam Change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergal Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 I don’t disagree that a wt higher would be better on that rod, that’s what I would start with. I do not have that in a 10, I have 8 & 9. I have the 9 on one reel and a grand slam on the other. Both rods that I have with me (a Burk & Sector) handle both lines well but I prefer the slam a little more on the Burk. JHarlam 1 ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oliver Posted February 10, 2023 Report Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, JHarlam said: This is all that needs to be said. The flats pro just isn't the right line for me and this rod specifically for the fishing scenarios I'm using it. Numbskull...I don't even want to start responding to your last post you're clearly deadset on telling me I'm wrong and ignoring the initial question. Rods do 'load' and transmit energy. It's classic physics. If they didn't flex you'd lose all the power you're putting in to the rod. The line weight is part of the equation for allowing a nicely balanced power transfer. So are WE! Since all you want to do is critique my knowledge and casting skill I'll take a video for you next time I'm at the park practicing. Then we can have the conversation you want to have. J a fully flexed rod adds just 15% to our cast so it does return some of the energy we put into it. That is pretty insignificant. But we have to apply the force to make it flex. Flex is I believe a much better description than loading the rod. It is not like a catapult. We can cast a rod that does not flex at all providing we do not lose tension in the line then we do not lose energy. It is extremely difficult with a no bend rod to establish a straight line rod path so loops will be compromised. Line weight is important in that a given rod will more easily work with a certain line for most Fishers. Some rods are terribly labled. Numbskul is trying to help not put you down. I see the same probs as he is. It really is the case that a good caster will be able to put into the air at least up to 50 feet. If a caster can’t then 90 feet the holy grail is not possible. If you can post a video up it will help this discussion a lot. Mostly SOL is an inclusive place to be. We have the odd spats but they get sorted as most guys on hear are of that ilke. cheers mike JonC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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