KNOT preference for direct tie with 200# mono?

[TheReelLuke]

2 mins ago, flyangler said:

All depends on whether there is bait around or not. If there is bait, then the sharks can be around the jacks. We have had days where you could walk up to that stretch of beach and see half eaten snook, pomps or small jacks washed up on the beach. it does not happen always, but if the whole foodchain is there, the sharks will likely be around. 

 

during the mullet run, you can have jacks, blues, snook, blacktips and bull sharks all in the mix, with the big bulls focused on the jacks and blues. and no easier target than a 10+ pound jack or blue hooked up to a line for a hungry shark. how many "tax collector" experiences have you had? 

On open beach, no structure, we can get by with 80-125. I use 80 mono with my lighter rod on 40# braid. and 125 on open beach with the 65. 

 

it is when you are fishing jetties, reefs or old submerged seawalls/jetties then we bang up the abrasion resistance with 200#. 

i am not the most accomplished shark guy but among the sharpies, there is definitely a separation on whether you can use wire with topwaters. some see no issue with a foot of wire to a swivel and 4-5' of 200# to an FG or PR knot or swivel. Others feel wire inhibits the action of popper or skip baits and want all mono. those guys, if rigging specifically for sharks, will bot 300 or 400# mono for the extra diameter. 

I gotchya, i think i used to live a little north of you near fort pierce and Stuart, and the sharks would get crazy at times but never seen washed up snook and pomps, that’s pretty crazy. What I’ve seen in my experiences is that if a fish is going to dig you into a deeper part of an inlet drop off he’s gonna take you far enough in where your braid will get destroyed on the shelf. I generally use an 8 foot section of leader, and the majority of my losses are from pulled hooks and braid getting cut in rocks. In general i think if you have heavy enough leader where the fish wont fray it with it’s mouth(or a sharks body), then you should be good to go. Personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable targeting sharks with 200 pound mono being that they have cut me off on 400 before, and i dont like to leave tackle inside fish. I’ve have tons of sharks go after fish I’ve hooked, and scaling up tackle is one of the better ways to get them to land in one piece. I should also state that fishing with 130 from a jetty, I’ll retye any time my leader is under 6 foot and cut off any abrasion. Have yet to be frayed though by anything other than a shark. Also I can see why mono would be better for lure presentation, but have you considered haywire twists or titanium wire that doesn’t kink?

[TheReelLuke]

Also got to ask, how do you break off 200 tied to 65? Ive had times where its nearly impossible to break off 50 j braid fg notted to 130 snagged on bottom. Lots of straightened hooks but sometimes when a jig head is jammed in the rocks of a mess of someone else’s line its just a matter if the weakest point breaking.

[KarpsnKatz]

If it hasn't been mentioned already, check out the "Triple O" Knot.

[flyangler]

8 hours ago, TheReelLuke said:

Also got to ask, how do you break off 200 tied to 65? Ive had times where its nearly impossible to break off 50 j braid fg notted to 130 snagged on bottom. Lots of straightened hooks but sometimes when a jig head is jammed in the rocks of a mess of someone else’s line its just a matter if the weakest point breaking.

Great question and one I have not had to deal with, yet. 

[EricDice]

@flyangler is it a function of the clip changing angle before popping?
 

Because I don’t think the issue is that little gap in the clip or a loop knot etc. Reason being- you have a “gap” created by allowing a touch of slack before popping. 
 

No conclusions to draw or solutions to suggest. Just curious. 

[sytheteacher]

Another solution to knotting 100 plus pound mono is to use double barrel crimps.. Stay away from the end of the crimp and only squeeze the middle area of the crimp.. Done deal..

[flyangler]

1 hour ago, EricDice said:

@flyangler is it a function of the clip changing angle before popping?
 

Because I don’t think the issue is that little gap in the clip or a loop knot etc. Reason being- you have a “gap” created by allowing a touch of slack before popping. 
 

No conclusions to draw or solutions to suggest. Just curious. 

Correct, it is the hinging of the connection that allows for the delay between the line getting tight at the front of the popper and it moving.
 

It is also the angle involved, which depends on the height of the tip of the rod relative to the nose of the plug. When we’re casting off of the jetties, as in the picture above, that angle is actually quite steep, because you have the height of the rocks above the water, the angler’s height, and then about half the length of the rod. When you’re off of the sand that angle is significantly less for all the obvious reasons. 
 

So a crimp to a TA clip creates two hinge points, one the loop on the crimp and the second the TA clip into the nose of the plug. Both of those have to be resolved on the tension of the line. Depending on wave action, that plug could actually dive below the surface, particularly from the beach with a shallower angle. If the line is connected directly to the nose, or has less stuff on it (solid ring into a split ring), the reaction function is going to be much faster  And the odds are that the nose of the plug gets pulled immediately in the direction of the line. Interestingly, the Rapolla X wrap, magnum explode plug is advertised as actually pulling itself under the surface to create even more water movement. So on top of all of the above, you have a plug design that would potentially exacerbate the diving issue. 

 

This is probably way overthinking it which is something that I am prone to do but I did notice that using the same plug style I was not moving nearly as much water with my set up as the guy in the photo, who was tied directly to the plug . And that’s really what started this entire thinking process, researching knots, etc.. 

[flyangler]

19 mins ago, sytheteacher said:

Another solution to knotting 100 plus pound mono is to use double barrel crimps.. Stay away from the end of the crimp and only squeeze the middle area of the crimp.. Done deal..

but again, the issue with a crimp, is unless you snug it completely tight to the connection point on the plug. You are going to have some size loop that creates this hinging issue.

 

I did find one guy who fishes for GT‘s and he uses a crimp but he wraps the leader around the lure eye twice and then crimp down tight against that. He said the challenge with that is that the sharp edge of the crimp can wear into the mono because of the tight proximity. Hoeevet, he went on to say that he has taken Emery paper to the front end of the crimp sleeve to smooth out the sharp edge, which seems to make a big difference. 

[RWP]

Centuari knot will hold the best. I've used it with up to 300lb in testing.

 

Uni knot will slip first, but a uni should outlast 65lb braid.

[EricDice]

32 mins ago, flyangler said:

Correct, it is the hinging of the connection that allows for the delay between the line getting tight at the front of the popper and it moving.
 

It is also the angle involved, which depends on the height of the tip of the rod relative to the nose of the plug. When we’re casting off of the jetties, as in the picture above, that angle is actually quite steep, because you have the height of the rocks above the water, the angler’s height, and then about half the length of the rod. When you’re off of the sand that angle is significantly less for all the obvious reasons. 
 

So a crimp to a TA clip creates two hinge points, one the loop on the crimp and the second the TA clip into the nose of the plug. Both of those have to be resolved on the tension of the line. Depending on wave action, that plug could actually dive below the surface, particularly from the beach with a shallower angle. If the line is connected directly to the nose, or has less stuff on it (solid ring into a split ring), the reaction function is going to be much faster  And the odds are that the nose of the plug gets pulled immediately in the direction of the line. Interestingly, the Rapolla X wrap, magnum explode plug is advertised as actually pulling itself under the surface to create even more water movement. So on top of all of the above, you have a plug design that would potentially exacerbate the diving issue. 

 

This is probably way overthinking it which is something that I am prone to do but I did notice that using the same plug style I was not moving nearly as much water with my set up as the guy in the photo, who was tied directly to the plug . And that’s really what started this entire thinking process, researching knots, etc.. 

 

29 mins ago, flyangler said:

but again, the issue with a crimp, is unless you snug it completely tight to the connection point on the plug. You are going to have some size loop that creates this hinging issue.

 

I did find one guy who fishes for GT‘s and he uses a crimp but he wraps the leader around the lure eye twice and then crimp down tight against that. He said the challenge with that is that the sharp edge of the crimp can wear into the mono because of the tight proximity. Hoeevet, he went on to say that he has taken Emery paper to the front end of the crimp sleeve to smooth out the sharp edge, which seems to make a big difference. 

What about tying mono direct and…

 

(while this seems to work for your buddy I see a possibility of the knot changing angles on the plug eye)

 

Over-wrapping the plug eye and the knot with thread like from a fly bobbin. Start at the plug eye. Wrap it up and back down onto the eye again. Hit it with superglue wherever you wrapped (and Sally Hansen if you’re feeling fancy).

 

Like an ace bandage keeps your wrist straight. 
 

I use this exact method after tying a TA clip on my leader so the leader knot stays right where it’s supposed to be on that clip. It’s not necessary but then you need to check it so you don’t lose a plug/fish/both.

[BanditReel87]

I'll tie an Uni if crimping isn't an option, but I would prefer to crimp.  That much # I have more faith in my crimp than my knot.

[billthe5th]

15 hours ago, flyangler said:

 

pretty much sounds like 2-3 turn uni or clinch is preferred by many. many of the west coast tuna guys seem to prefer knots where you get two wraps around the hook eye or lure point. the idea being that two wraps spread out the strain, reduce abrasion risk and make for a knot that is less likely to slip

 

 

I meant 2-3 twists in the knot itself.

I don't think a second turn around the lure eye is needed with mono that heavy, might just make the knot harder to pull tight. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think thats what the other guys here were referring to? 

[flyangler]

Perhaps I have been as clear as mud. 
 

Direct tie is the best solution, once a knot is favored. As pointed out, if 200# mono I only need 50% knot strength for 65# braid (whose ABS is likely 80-100#). So the knot just needs to stay tight. 
 

My weakness is my impatience and “need” to change out plugs rather than use same plug for full session. Sure, retyping direct knot is easy and a 5-6’ leader can take many reties before being too short. And that’s where a solid ring knotted on end of leader and split ring on nose of plug offers compromise. Yes, two “hinges” but shorter than crimp loop and  TA clip and easier to attach. But will still require a split ring pliers so is that really any better than TA clip? 

[flyangler]

I was not planning to hit the beach this morning but my internal clock woke me up early and I figured what the heck. Went to a local beach which would not have been as productive as the one I was at last week but I didn’t feel like driving for half an hour to get to the latter.

 

So needless to say, I have not re-rigged, anything relative to this discussion, but thought I’d post some pictures of what it is that I’m working with.

 

 

[Hook I]

#200 why ?