Running Ape

Stripper Guide Size

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Quick question for the crowd: I have a very nice orvis rod (9 wt) from the 90s. The first guide is small 16mm. I’m thinking of replacement with a 25 mm as it seems to limit line shooting?

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1 hour ago, Running Ape said:

Quick question for the crowd: I have a very nice orvis rod (9 wt) from the 90s. The first guide is small 16mm. I’m thinking of replacement with a 25 mm as it seems to limit line shooting?

Ah, the pendulum swings. In the early 90s salt water rod designs were still influenced by their freshwater siblings. Standard / Conventional thinking of fly rod makers led to many saltwater fly rods with guide sizing on the smaller side. That school of thought held that fly line control with precision fly placement being most important. Certainly that's a truism when trout fishing and most rod builders (particularly Sage) designed rods to that end. It was about reduced line slap & control of the cast.

 

Curiously, Rhody fly fishers advocated for larger sized stripping & snake guides on long rods ... to help shoot fly line longer ... and importantly to aid in clearing knots & loops between the fly line & backing, etc. when hooked up to a rampaging Striper or Bluefish.  Once Lefty Kreh embraced that idea (as did others like T&T fly rods) ... Stripping & Snake guides on saltwater rods enlarged across the industry (led by TFO?). It all made operational sense. 

 

These days there is a trend back to a smaller sized 16mm first stripping guide.

 

For the first stripping guide is for gathering the shooting fly line and 16 mm is fine for most rods (6 to 9wt). When you get to a 9 or 10 weight fly rod (and above) then maybe a 20 mm guide is better because the fly line is thicker. This is what Sage has evolved to on their salt water fly rod models. The first stripper guide is 20 mm and the next stripping guide is 12 mm. Sage has also enlarged their snake guide sizing a bit on salt water & switch rods.

 

To my way of thinking about fly rod design ... 25mm would be on the very large side. I would recommend a train of 20mm, 16mm, 12mm ... and then a size 6mm snake guide. Or follow the Sage formula of 20mm to 12mm, etc. IMHO.

 

A Sage Maverick 10wt ... 20mm to 12 mm stripping guides:

 

IMG_7005.jpeg.c43b8fdcaf8c979746853ed79ccadf58.jpeg

 

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Yes to above.

25mm much too large. 20 mm is correct size.

While you're at it - move the #16 to replace the 2nd ceramic and move the 2nd ceramic into 3rd place replacing te snake.

On my latest builds I'm going with 2 ceramics after the stripper.

So, on a 9wt - I would use a #20 REC Cerecoil stripper, next a #16 Cerecoil, next a #12 Cerecoil.

Then onto REC single foot guides.

BTW - if you let the line slide through your line hand during casting - instead of just letting it fly - the line will flow fine through the #16.

Herb

 

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All my rods are 16 then 12 and I haven't had any issues, but have been using a 5 weight I built in the 90s lately for bass and find the snakes to feel tiny. I don't have any of my old salt rods from those days but I suspect that if I did I would wind up replacing all of them. A 25 is huge, can that even fit in most rod socks?

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Posted (edited)

And here comes the spanner.  A Fuji size 16 is large enough for a 9 or 10 wt.

 

It will not stop you shooting or casting line very well.

 

Ok a size 20 is alright but does it give any advantage that can be measured.

 

Typically on my rods I fit a stripper guide and then another two footed guide.

I am asking myself why. Why do we need another two footed guide. More weight and more cost.

 

Mike

 

ok ok I forgot that the fly line when passing through the stripper guide overshoots and has to double back on its self so a more sturdy two footed guide in front of the stripper is probably not a bad idea after all.

Edited by Mike Oliver

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25 mins ago, Running Ape said:

There is only one ceramic guide then small snake guides

If you are ok to do it your self then if you really are not happy with the 16. Replace with a Fuji 20 and then a Fuji 16 then a big snake guide at least a size 6.

If the running snakes are too small then they need replacing as well. But do the two stripper guides first and see how the rod casts. 
 

Some rod makers make a big deal about over sized guides. Really that is poor terminology.  No need for over size just the appropriate size. In a snake a size 4 should be ok for a 9 wt line

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Posted (edited)

Have any of the above posters (including my two friends Mike and Herb) saying it is too large; ACTUALLY MEASURED differences between 16 20 and (gasp) 25?

I doubt it..... I feel a nerd-challenge coming on for myself for say a #9?

12 only

16 to 12

20 to 16

20 to 12

20 high frame to 12 high frame

25 to 16

 

 

Edited by ZAFisher

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Posted (edited)

And not just distance cast - easy enough to mark the line with a paint-marker and watch for it

20 casts and count the # of snarl-ups at the stripper; that interests me more.

#20 vs #25 might be a toss up, but enquiring minds need to know

 

Edited by ZAFisher

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52 mins ago, ZAFisher said:

Have any of the above posters (including my two friends Mike and Herb) saying it is too large; ACTUALLY MEASURED differences between 16 20 and (gasp) 25?

I doubt it..... I feel a nerd-challenge coming on for myself for say a #9?

12 only

16 to 12

20 to 16

20 to 12

20 high frame to 12 high frame

25 to 16

 

 

Nerd alert! I actually do measure and weigh things / components. Cheers!

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4 hours ago, HL said:

BTW - if you let the line slide through your line hand during casting - instead of just letting it fly - the line will flow fine through the #16.

This has truth to it - slows the line down.

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34 mins ago, ZAFisher said:

This has truth to it - slows the line down.

I'm not sure that's the exact answer. Yes, it absolutely slows down but what it really does (imho) is that it prevents the lines from blowing past the first guide and then coming back around in thru, there's a huge loss on energy there. The line can't go thru the rest of the guides and out it's blowing around the guide. On spinning set-ups, the RV guides are supposed to prevent this very thing from happening. I've tried videoing it but I haven't been able to get it good enough to see but it's there.

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Ok We have a cause and effect. What causes snarl ups at the stripper.  Is it because the ID of the center  is too small or even too big. Is it because the centre is set too low or too high. Is it because of the frame. Or is it a casting fault.

We are not dealing with coils of line thrown off a spinning reel. We are dealing with line being shot from a line tray, or from coils in our hands, or from water or the ground. There has been slow mo filming which has tended to focus on how the fly line passes through the stripper guide rather than from where the line is coming from. I suspect that line shot where the line is released from the line hand is more likely to snarl than when the line is made to travel through an O formed between the index finger and thumb. In the former we have lost control of the fly line which is undesirable.

As a rod builder we aim to minimise the effect on the blank caused by mass and guides are a component that we look at very hard. The fewest guides and smallest guides is the starting point. If a size 12 stripper works just as well as a 20 why would we not use it.

The only way to find out is to run trials. FWIW on one of my TH the stripper is just a 16. Looks odd but heh it works very well.

 

Mike

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8 hours ago, Drew C. said:

On spinning set-ups, the RV guides are supposed to prevent this very thing from happening.

An RV20 was one guide I was planning on trying out as a stripper

 

 

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