CaryGreene

Fly Line Manufacurer Review

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I've used Outbound Short Intermediate lines since they were available. I've not used the new premier version yet. The only durability issue was the running line cracking in the area behind the head where it wears. Given the use these get I have no issue replacing them after 3 years which is how long they seem to last. 

I have a couple of the new Striper Premium lines to try now. They look and feel very similar but time will tell. 

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Thanks for the into, Cary!  The older 475g line @ 29ft head length is what I ordered for use with large unweighted flies on what is essentially an experimental 11x11 TH rod (11ft 11wt, if rated for spey; thus more like a 13/14wt in single hand terms).  Can add a 5ft tarpon polyleader (weighs around 55g), so 530g.  The rod handles 530 to 630g overhead.

Edited by Killiefish

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1 hour ago, JRT said:

I've used Outbound Short Intermediate lines since they were available. I've not used the new premier version yet. The only durability issue was the running line cracking in the area behind the head where it wears. Given the use these get I have no issue replacing them after 3 years which is how long they seem to last. 

I have a couple of the new Striper Premium lines to try now. They look and feel very similar but time will tell. 

Hi JRT, great feedback on the RIO OBS, we appreciate being given in this thread! If you fish a lot - and from the sound of it you do, geting three seasons out of a single line is very good. 

 

The cracking behind the head sounds like basic wear and tear. I did notice a change in Taper schematics from the older OBS to the newer ones. It seems like the Striper line took on the design of the older OBS. The Striper taper now looks like this:

62bb3499231fe_Screenshot2022-06-281_03_09PM.png.afc58d5b776aad5abd12e1132abfc96e.png

 

Where as, the newer OBS taper looks like this:

62bb3520247c4_Screenshot2022-06-281_06_16PM.png.704a31a7c76d77c5521cf33a10d1229a.png

 

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Here's a comparison of the "New" Rio Striper line (pale yellow blue) with the "Old" Rio Pike/Musky line (pale yellow green).  The tapers look very similar, and the head lengths are even similar (30ft, 29ft).  Even the 12ft handling section looks similar.

 

The newer Striper line will cost you $100.  The older Pike/Musky is ~$45 on closeout if you look around.  Both are coldwater lines.  The Pike/Musky line may even throw larger flies a bit better and can handle tips (like a 5ft clear int tip), so if you are throwing huge flies, just go with the cheaper line.  YMMV.

 

muskyl.jpg.53d4b1074d4ad0d15dc14e875b9194a0.jpg

Rio-Striper-New-version.png

Edited by Killiefish

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Note:  the Pike/Musky line is AAFTMA + 3 line weights heavy, as per discussions in this thread.  The 11wt Pike Musky line would be a perfect line for fishing at night with massively bulky flies, as per TheGraveYardShift.  The 11ft T&T two hand Exocett Surf rod he describes (he has both the 10 and 12wt models) would be a close match for this line for two hand overhead casting from a high position (e.g. jetty or canal).

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My personal belief is that it is bad to leave any fly gear in a hot car, for any length of time.  Plastic of any kind will soften and possibly even begin to melt.  Also many fly lines have an added lubricant or softening agent in them (or both) and these additives can be kind of nasty (some are toxic).  Cold water lines by Rio, and Sci Anglers, for example, have some additives that, IMO, are not particularly healthy.  Rio and Sci Anglers do not specify what is in their lines but PVC is a main component.  So called "Agent X" is an unknown substance, most likely a combined lubricant and plasticizer (softening agent).  These additives may begin to leach out of the line, and/or sublimate (i.e., outgas).  Result may be a line that becomes tacky, weakened and/or damaged.  A Rio OBS coldwater line that I have was probably left in a hot car by the former owner.  It has a bubble gum like sticky surface now. May also have been a bad batch of line though.

 

Warm water or tropical lines also have the same or similar composition but very likely have less softening agents in them, and are less likely to become tacky, sticky or otherwise damaged by heat.  This is kind of a speculation on my part. Intense or very prolonged heat, however, will also damage these lines, IMO.

 

The best lines for really high heat (long term use in tropics) are, IMO, made by Airflo.  Airflo does not use PVC in their lines.  Airflo lines that I have used (with the exception of some of their earliest lines) hold up well in extreme conditions and do not seem to suffer from nasty chemical additives or components leaking/leaching out of the lines over time.  Their coldwater lines are also less prone to drying out and cracking than other manufacturers lines.  I still would not leave them in a hot car if it could be avoided.  YMMV.

 

 

Edited by Killiefish

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Speaking of  warm decks and running lines, The Cortland Sink 8 Coldwater failed miserably on the boat and did marginally better out of the stripping basket. The dark blue running line tangles easy, worse line of the year, so far.  It failed at all temps. A friend who is a highly respected guide got some given to him. They're on auction........   Excellent service from the Orvis DC albeit not the newest iteration, and a Rio  Coastal Quickshooter  Intermediate.  Beat the wind, beat the temp changes, best of all beat up slot and above stripers.  Long casts help from spooking the  bigger fish this year, at least from the boat.  Covering water wading, longer is better, too.  

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Yikes! I was considering the Cortland Sink 8, but will look at a different option. @CaryGreeneI know you've outlined some options, but do you have a favorite sink tip line? If you were to get one line with a sinking head and an intermediate running line, what would you choose? I'm leaning toward the RIO Striper 250 or 300gr, but I'm a little concerned about the weird compound taper. The Airflo 40+ seems good, but at 315gr, it may be a little too heavy for my 8wt. 

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On 6/30/2022 at 11:56 AM, Killiefish said:

My personal belief is that it is bad to leave any fly gear in a hot car, for any length of time.  Plastic of any kind will soften and possibly even begin to melt.  Also many fly lines have an added lubricant or softening agent in them (or both) and these additives can be kind of nasty (some are toxic).  Cold water lines by Rio, and Sci Anglers, for example, have some additives that, IMO, are not particularly healthy.  Rio and Sci Anglers do not specify what is in their lines but PVC is a main component.  So called "Agent X" is an unknown substance, most likely a combined lubricant and plasticizer (softening agent).  These additives may begin to leach out of the line, and/or sublimate (i.e., outgas).  Result may be a line that becomes tacky, weakened and/or damaged.  A Rio OBS coldwater line that I have was probably left in a hot car by the former owner.  It has a bubble gum like sticky surface now. May also have been a bad batch of line though.

 

Warm water or tropical lines also have the same or similar composition but very likely have less softening agents in them, and are less likely to become tacky, sticky or otherwise damaged by heat.  This is kind of a speculation on my part. Intense or very prolonged heat, however, will also damage these lines, IMO.

 

The best lines for really high heat (long term use in tropics) are, IMO, made by Airflo.  Airflo does not use PVC in their lines.  Airflo lines that I have used (with the exception of some of their earliest lines) hold up well in extreme conditions and do not seem to suffer from nasty chemical additives or components leaking/leaching out of the lines over time.  Their coldwater lines are also less prone to drying out and cracking than other manufacturers lines.  I still would not leave them in a hot car if it could be avoided.  YMMV.

 

 

Good stuff as always Killiefish! Couple of things - 

  1. You're spot on with your reasoning as to why leaving a "coldwater" fly line in a hot car is a bad idea. It's also not a great idea to leave a "hot-water" line in a hot car. With windows up and depending upon the vehicle's interior color, sumertime temperatures inside a vehicle can go from 90 degrees on a 90 degree day to a sweltering 138 degrees in a mere hour! That will even cook a flyline rated for hot-water as these lines are engineered to hold up in air temps as hot as 100 degrees. All plastics melt. Many other materials melt as well under that extreme of temperature and adhesives easily break down as well, which can cause outer layers of fly lines to crack or separate from inner layers or the line's core.  
  2. Agent X's primary ingredient is Silicone. They used to actually list Silicone on the wrapper but no longer do that as it's apperently now "top-secret" information. Silicone is non-toxic to the enviornment. 
Edited by CaryGreene

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On 6/30/2022 at 2:02 PM, bloosfisher said:

Speaking of  warm decks and running lines, The Cortland Sink 8 Coldwater failed miserably on the boat and did marginally better out of the stripping basket. The dark blue running line tangles easy, worse line of the year, so far.  It failed at all temps. A friend who is a highly respected guide got some given to him. They're on auction........   Excellent service from the Orvis DC albeit not the newest iteration, and a Rio  Coastal Quickshooter  Intermediate.  Beat the wind, beat the temp changes, best of all beat up slot and above stripers.  Long casts help from spooking the  bigger fish this year, at least from the boat.  Covering water wading, longer is better, too.  

Interesting feedback bloosfisher - out of curiosity, can you confirm that it was the Sink 8 line you used and not the Compact Sink Type 9? I see you're noting that the running line had tangling issues. 

 

Both lines physically look identical at a glance. But they are VASTLY different. 

 

Also, in what general temps were you using these lines, which led to the tangling issues? 

 

Lastly, you say your friend was "given" these lines, were they in a box, un-used and did they come on Cortland Line Spool? Or, were they just pre-coiled and unboxed? 

Edited by CaryGreene

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2 hours ago, iklu said:

Yikes! I was considering the Cortland Sink 8, but will look at a different option. @CaryGreeneI know you've outlined some options, but do you have a favorite sink tip line? If you were to get one line with a sinking head and an intermediate running line, what would you choose? I'm leaning toward the RIO Striper 250 or 300gr, but I'm a little concerned about the weird compound taper. The Airflo 40+ seems good, but at 315gr, it may be a little too heavy for my 8wt. 

I would hold off on changing course on this issue until bloosfisher is able to confirm that the Sink 8 had problems (he may be confusing it with the Compact Sink 9, which is a Tropical Line and absolutely would tangle if used in cold water). 

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Hate to disagree but SOME silicone products and breakdown products (e.g., formaldehyde) are indeed toxic, persistent, and can bio-accumulate.  Here's what I found on Wikipedia;  (but hey, it's only ONE of the formerly listed ingredients - wonder why they don't list it anymore?, could it be that....)

 

"Silicone compounds are pervasive in the environment. Particular silicone compounds, cyclic siloxanes D4 and D5, are air and water pollutants and have negative health effects on test animals.[25] They are used in various personal care products. The European Chemicals Agency found that "D4 is a persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic (PBT) substance and D5 is a very persistent, very bioaccumulative (vPvB) substance".[26][27] Other silicones biodegrade readily, a process that is accelerated by a variety of catalysts, including clays.[1] Cyclic silicones have been shown to involve the occurrence of silanols during biodegradation in mammals.[28] The resulting silanediols and silanetriols are capable of inhibiting hydrolytic enzymes such as thermolysin, acetycholinesterase, however, the doses required for inhibition are by orders of magnitude higher than the ones resulting from the accumulated exposure to consumer products containing cyclomethicone."

 

"At around 200 °C (392 °F) in an oxygen-containing atmosphere, PDMS releases traces of formaldehyde (but lesser amounts than other common materials such as polyethylene.[31][32]) At this temperature, silicones were found to have lower formaldehyde generation than mineral oil and plastics (less than 3 to 48 µg CH2O/(g·hr) for a high consistency silicone rubber, versus around 400 µg CH2O/(g·hr) for plastics and mineral oil). By 250 °C (482 °F), copious amounts of formaldehyde have been found to be produced by all silicones (1,200 to 4,600 µg CH2O/(g·hr))"

Don't even get me started re: PVC.

plasticizers again from Wikipedia):

"Plasticizers

Phthalates, which are incorporated into plastics as plasticizers, comprise approximately 70% of the US plasticizer market; phthalates are by design not covalently bound to the polymer matrix, which makes them highly susceptible to leaching. Phthalates are contained in plastics at high percentages. For example, they can contribute up to 40% by weight to intravenous medical bags and up to 80% by weight in medical tubing.[47] Vinyl products are pervasive—including toys,[48] car interiors, shower curtains, and flooring—and initially release chemical gases into the air. Some studies indicate that this outgassing of additives may contribute to health complications, and have resulted in a call for banning the use of DEHP on shower curtains, among other uses.[49] Japanese car companies Toyota, Nissan, and Honda eliminated the use of PVC in car interiors since 2007.

In 2004 a joint Swedish-Danish research team found a statistical association between allergies in children and indoor air levels of DEHP and BBzP (butyl benzyl phthalate), which is used in vinyl flooring.[50] In December 2006, the European Chemicals Bureau of the European Commission released a final draft risk assessment of BBzP which found "no concern" for consumer exposure including exposure to children.[51]"

 

 

 

Edited by Killiefish

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4 mins ago, Killiefish said:

"At around 200 °C (392 °F) in an oxygen-containing atmosphere, PDMS releases traces of formaldehyde (but lesser amounts than other common materials such as polyethylene.[31][32]) At this temperature, silicones were found to have lower formaldehyde generation than mineral oil and plastics (less than 3 to 48 µg CH2O/(g·hr) for a high consistency silicone rubber, versus around 400 µg CH2O/(g·hr) for plastics and mineral oil). By 250 °C (482 °F), copious amounts of formaldehyde have been found to be produced by all silicones (1,200 to 4,600 µg CH2O/(g·hr))"

Are you fishing in temperatures ranging between 392 F and 482 F Killiefish? <chuckling, but half-serious> I'm all for the environment, for sure, but for D4 or D5 to be "harmful" it would need to be quantifiably present and heated to a temperature where it would be harmful. 

 

I think there is virtually zero negatives regarding a fly-line dressing that's made of silicone, wich is a derriviative of Sand. 

 

11 mins ago, Killiefish said:

"Silicone compounds are pervasive in the environment. Particular silicone compounds, cyclic siloxanes D4 and D5, are air and water pollutants and have negative health effects on test animals

D4 is an odourless, colourless liquid mostly used as an intermediate or basic raw material in the production of silicone rubbers, gels and resins. When used as an intermediate during the manufacturing process, virtually all D4 is consumed with only a tiny amount remaining in final products.

 

 

D5 is an odourless, colourless liquid mostly used as an intermediate or basic raw material in the production of silicone rubbers, gels and resins. When used as an intermediate during the manufacturing process, virtually all D5 is also consumed with only a tiny amount remaining in final products.

 

D5 can be added as an ingredient in silicone mixtures used in cosmetic applications such as skin creams and sunscreen, where it may be labelled “cyclomethicone” or “cyclopentasiloxane”. (D5 can also be used as a dry-cleaning solvent in closed systems, which significantly limits exposure to workers, consumers and the environment.)

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I respect Airflo for doing like the Japanese did but even earlier -- eliminating PVC from all their products.  That's, IMO, a ringing endorsement for Airflo.  Have to accept that Airflo  cares more about your health apparently than the other brands.  There's no coincidence here.  Airflo was not originally a U.S. brand.   BTW, Airflo eliminated PVC in 1984, so over 35 years ago.  Go figure...or as they say in the U.K. "do the maths (plural)."

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