CaryGreene

Leader Design - Saltwater and Freshwater

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3 hours ago, Surfinator said:

I'm assuming you measure the fly line diameter just behind the welded loop?

Yes, that would be a good spot to take a measurement. 

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Cary, and all others reading this.

 

I know that you invited comments and discussion on this same thread of casting dynamics issues, and again privately when I asked you. I thought then, and only more strongly as I write this that that is a mistake. Yes, casting dynamics inevitably reach and affect leader performance, and yes, the physics of a flycast operate equally on a leader as on a fly line. But....the physics of a flycast get us the first way out there, hopefully with enough residual energy to complete leader turnover. The leader is only the last 10 feet or so. And no one is trying to flycast a leader only.

 

I think this discussion as I envision it will dilute and interfere with those following or looking for specific leader information, and vice versa. I also think that those who have already settled their leader intentions will never know that this discussion is existing here, as they would if it were in a separate, properly entitled thread of its own.

 

I am respecting your request. But if readers request that it be in a separate thread, I will move it. There will be references back to your casting information here, and possibly to The Whole line Thread, just as you would be free to reference back from a casting thread to leader information/concepts on this thread.

 

Secondly, my goal is that this be as readable and understandable to everyone as possible. In my mind that does NOT happen with a battle of massive, dense information dumps. Very few, if any, would read through a single post of line by line critique of seemlingly random issues , and then an answering line by line rebuttal. I think clarity and understanding comes with isolated focus on smaller pieces of the whole, and use of big picture analysis using common big picture terms....whenever possible. I suspect we would both agree that there are a TON of physics going on throughout a cast cycle we COULD talk about....that are functionally irrelevant or of interest only to someone looking for an extra inch at 120 feet.

 

Perhaps much of my ignorance regarding what you present as settled physics comes from the reality that I stopped paying attention is discussions of the physics of a flycast over a decade ago.....because I thought that most or all of the big picture dynamics were explained. Your initial mention of the aerodynamics and lift inherent in a moving fly line in the Whole Line Thread caught me (and others) totally off guard. If so important, how did THAT go un-mentioned or un-appreciated for so long....was my thought. Rhetorical question only at this point.

 

Sometimes differences in understanding can occur when an entity is examined from the point view of different paradigms, like the elephant being examined and described by blind men, one starting at the head and the other starting at the tail...or... a person looking through a microscope and another through a wide angle lens. That may be the case here. We shall see.

 

Finally, is this really all that important? After all, whether we understand the physics correctly or not, fly lines are going to keep doing what they have always done. My analysis from my paradigm led me to a lot of adjustments in gear and form, such as leaders, which are arguably identical to Cary's....he being led by his paradigm. The difference being his focus on leader butt diameter, mine was mass. But, so long as we are talking about nylons and fluorocarbons the two are closely linked. So long as densities being discussed are close, there is little difference. Diameter is a very readily accessible measurement (argument for diameter).....but.....if mass is important.....only if/until someone develops a very light floating leader material and tries to use it into the butt. Argument for mass.

 

So.....let us begin.  I have three basic questions.

 

However we want to examine it, the physics of fly line moving at velocity is going to be complicated. So let's start with the, in my mind, most glaring and dramatic aspect of a fly cast....and what should be the most simple.....since the line is motionless. Imagine the late stage of a long cast carrying a lot of (level belly) line....no shoot. What I see is a long stretch of post-loop fly line (no velocity....no aerodynamics.....no lift) hanging in the air, some of it for up to three seconds....defying gravity. What is holding it up?

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50 mins ago, Peter Patricelli said:

Cary, and all others reading this.

 

I know that you invited comments and discussion on this same thread of casting dynamics issues, and again privately when I asked you. I thought then, and only more strongly as I write this that that is a mistake. Yes, casting dynamics inevitably reach and affect leader performance, and yes, the physics of a flycast operate equally on a leader as on a fly line. But....the physics of a flycast get us the first way out there, hopefully with enough residual energy to complete leader turnover. The leader is only the last 10 feet or so. And no one is trying to flycast a leader only.

 

I think this discussion as I envision it will dilute and interfere with those following or looking for specific leader information, and vice versa. I also think that those who have already settled their leader intentions will never know that this discussion is existing here, as they would if it were in a separate, properly entitled thread of its own.

 

I am respecting your request. But if readers request that it be in a separate thread, I will move it. There will be references back to your casting information here, and possibly to The Whole line Thread, just as you would be free to reference back from a casting thread to leader information/concepts on this thread.

 

Secondly, my goal is that this be as readable and understandable to everyone as possible. In my mind that does NOT happen with a battle of massive, dense information dumps. Very few, if any, would read through a single post of line by line critique of seemlingly random issues , and then an answering line by line rebuttal. I think clarity and understanding comes with isolated focus on smaller pieces of the whole, and use of big picture analysis using common big picture terms....whenever possible. I suspect we would both agree that there are a TON of physics going on throughout a cast cycle we COULD talk about....that are functionally irrelevant or of interest only to someone looking for an extra inch at 120 feet.

 

Perhaps much of my ignorance regarding what you present as settled physics comes from the reality that I stopped paying attention is discussions of the physics of a flycast over a decade ago.....because I thought that most or all of the big picture dynamics were explained. Your initial mention of the aerodynamics and lift inherent in a moving fly line in the Whole Line Thread caught me (and others) totally off guard. If so important, how did THAT go un-mentioned or un-appreciated for so long....was my thought. Rhetorical question only at this point.

 

Sometimes differences in understanding can occur when an entity is examined from the point view of different paradigms, like the elephant being examined and described by blind men, one starting at the head and the other starting at the tail...or... a person looking through a microscope and another through a wide angle lens. That may be the case here. We shall see.

 

Finally, is this really all that important? After all, whether we understand the physics correctly or not, fly lines are going to keep doing what they have always done. My analysis from my paradigm led me to a lot of adjustments in gear and form, such as leaders, which are arguably identical to Cary's....he being led by his paradigm. The difference being his focus on leader butt diameter, mine was mass. But, so long as we are talking about nylons and fluorocarbons the two are closely linked. So long as densities being discussed are close, there is little difference. Diameter is a very readily accessible measurement (argument for diameter).....but.....if mass is important.....only if/until someone develops a very light floating leader material and tries to use it into the butt. Argument for mass.

 

So.....let us begin.  I have three basic questions.

 

However we want to examine it, the physics of fly line moving at velocity is going to be complicated. So let's start with the, in my mind, most glaring and dramatic aspect of a fly cast....and what should be the most simple.....since the line is motionless. Imagine the late stage of a long cast carrying a lot of (level belly) line....no shoot. What I see is a long stretch of post-loop fly line (no velocity....no aerodynamics.....no lift) hanging in the air, some of it for up to three seconds....defying gravity. What is holding it up?

HI Peter, as we imagine a fly line hanging in the air, we know that absent the mechanical force of "Lift", that Drag has overcome the line's movement it and it is in the process of falling to the surface. Drag created by the LIne, Leader, Fly and the fact that it's physically attached to the Rod-Tip/Reel. The line isn't actually floating. It's also finished flying. What's happening is that the line's flight path has now stalled. 

 

For an object to float, the weight force of the object must be balanced by the upward push on the object of whatever the object is floating in. In this case, I’m imagining a perfectly straightened fly line, leader and fly - hanging for a split second, motionless, in the air as you describe Peter.

 

In order to “float” the weight force of the object must be supported by whatever it’s floating in. 

 

We know that if left to float for even a second or two, the fly line drops to the water’s surface, or the ground if practice casting on a lawn or in a parking lot. That is because air cannot support the fly line because of the effect of Newton’s Laws of Gravity. If the line were cast in a vacuum, then it would indeed float freely, uninfluenced by the forces of gravity. But, since I’m assuming we’re casting here on earth, this is not the case. 

 

How then could the line appear to be floating for a split second, before it’s flight completely deteriorates and it falls to the ground? 

 

Well, because there is no longer any Lift being generated by the moving fly-line, 

 

Remember me saying that Lift actually occurs then a moving flow of gas (in this case, air) is turned by a solid object (in this case, the fly line). The airflow is turned in one direction and the lift is generated in the opposite direction (according to Newton’s Third Law of Action and Reaction. 

 

I then pointed out that In fly casting, the head and leader of a fly line actually fly because of Lift, so - you cannot cast without Lift - which again is a Mechanical Force! Lift is not generated by a gravitational field or an electromagnetic field - where one object can affect another object without becoming in physical contact with each other. 

 

For lift to be generated, the solid body must be in contact with the fluid (in this case, that would be air). If there were no air, lift would not be possible in fly casting. As swimmers we can move the water in similar fashion to the way a bird flies through the air. In terms of flight principles, air and water are both fluids. Without those fluids, anything swimming or flying would sink or fall. 

 

Without motion, there is no lift. The act of casting imparts motion to the line. When motion ceases, Lift is overcome by the Drag of the object in flight.

 

Lift is generated by the difference in velocity between the solid object and the fluid (air, for our purposes). The fly line has to be started into motion and once it’s moving, the motion between the object and the air makes it possible for the fly line to be cast and stay in the air. 

 

It makes no difference at all whether the object moves through a static fluid, or whether the fluid moves past a static solid object. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. 

 

The reason I mention all this is because a force called “Drag” acts in the direction opposed to the motion. Drag is an aerodynamic force that is also present in a fly-cast or any other type of flight for that matter. Drag opposes the fly lines motion through the air and it is also generated by the mass of the fly line head and the leader and even the fly. 

 

Like all mechanical forces, drag must be generated in order to occur. Drag is created in a fly cast by the interaction with and the contact of the lin, Leader and Fly with the air and because we're hanging onto the line, it's forward momentum is ultimately stopped. This causes the flexible object (the line) to straighten in mid air. We can choose to release it and let it continue to fly, or we can stall it's flight and cause it to drop. 

 

If we allow the line to fly, Drag is generated because the solid fly line, Leader and fly are in contact with the air. Without air, we couldn’t cast a fly line and without air, a plane couldn’t fly unless it used some other force entirely (which is actually theoretically possible). 

 

Planes, like Fly-Lines, can "glide" for periods of time, but only because of motion and with motion, they create Lift for as long as the Lift is able to withstand the effects of Drag. 

 

The difference between the speed or “velocity” of the fly line and the air causes Drag to be generated. If the fly line isn’t moving, there can be no drag. In casting as with any object in “flight,” Drag is a force and it therefore becomes a “Vector Quantity” - one that has both a “Magnitude” and a “Direction.” Some Vector Quantities only have “Magnitude” and these are called Scalar Quantities.

 

A line that has straightened completely out has no Lift and no Drag. It is therefore 100% subject to Newton's Laws of Gravity. It is not Floating, because it has Mass. It may remain fairly straight as it drops, but drop it will surely do. Not float. 

 

This brings us back to Drag and why Drag is so important in Fly Casting. Drag acts in a direction that is opposite to the motion of the fly line (or any flying object). 

 

Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. There are many factors that affect the Magnitude of the Drag. Many factors also affect Lift but there are some factors that are unique to a Fly Line’s Drag. 

 

When a fly line moves through the air, the air resists the motion and pushes into the casting loop, which basically subjects the line to an aerodynamic force in a direction opposed to the motion. This is what Drag is and why it’s important to a cast. 

 

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Guys

 

This is all well and good but does it really help the guy with a limp wristed 40 foot cast he developed himself on a small river , who then transfers to the ocean at some stage but could not give a fig as he / she is totally oblivious to the fact their cast is poor.  I see this on your side of the pond, but when your Striper fishery was vital these guys could catch fish still. Let the same guy come to Europe with our tough degraded salt water fisheries and theirs would be an exercise in total futility and the golf bag would beckon.

 

Mike

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1 min ago, Mike Oliver said:

Guys

 

This is all well and good but does it really help the guy with a limp wristed 40 foot cast he developed himself on a small river , who then transfers to the ocean at some stage but could not give a fig as he / she is totally oblivious to the fact their cast is poor.  I see this on your side of the pond, but when your Striper fishery was vital these guys could catch fish still. Let the same guy come to Europe with our tough degraded salt water fisheries and theirs would be an exercise in total futility and the golf bag would beckon.

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

I would think that understanding how a cast actually works would help anyone. Just like, if you wanted to make ANY object fly, it would be beneficial to understand ways to make it fly better. 

 

Casting involves generating Lift and Overcoming Drag. This is why Leaders are so important in actual fishing. 

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Posted (edited)

Cary,

OK. Now I am angry.  THIS is what your original answer was:

 

"HI Peter, as we imagine a fly line hanging in the air, we know that absent the mechanical force of "Lift", that Drag has overcome the line's movement it and it is in the process of falling to the surface. Drag created by the LIne, Leader, Fly and the fact that it's physically attached to the Rod-Tip/Reel. The line isn't actually floating. It's also finished flying. What's happening is that the line's flight path has now stalled. 

 

For an object to float, the weight force of the object must be balanced by the upward push on the object of whatever the object is floating in. In this case, I’m imagining a perfectly straightened fly line, leader and fly - hanging for a split second, motionless, in the air as you describe Peter."

 

You then later added a massive, wandering, irrelevant information dump.

 

I have done nothing BUT bend over backwards to show you respect and give you credit where it was due.  Are you really going to insult my intelligence by adding paragraph after paragraph of irrelevent verbiage?

 

When I read that, I realized something and I was going to be compassionate and gentle.  I really didn't want to embarrass you.  That was the simplest question of all in a serious discussion of casting dynamics.  I asked that question because I realized that in all of your "explanations"....you avoided both the most OBVIOUS and dramatic question altogether. 

 

THEN you follow up and attempt to obfuscate with all that....that has NOTHING at all to do with the question.  The questions were/will get a LOT harder.....and, still have nothing at all to do with aerodynamics, stickey molecules, basilar boundary flow,  and so on of your "flyline lift model".

 

At the end of my post, before you can erase it, is the entirety of your second addition, all irrelevant to the question.

 

I can answer the question completely in one sentence.  There are then logical follow-up questions and explanations.  Or....with a 60 second video I just made.

 

https://www.smugmug.com/app/library?imageKey=7McSFXs

 

Yesterday, I showed you the respect to pm you to tell you that I was going to challenge your theory....and should I do it here or in a separate thread.  Here is, in part, the cynical encouragement you hoped would intimidate me:

 

"if you have uncovered information....... then what you have to say would revolutionize not only the principles of flight, but potentially the areospace laws that goven them .........

 It would also be good to share your contrary views to Newton's thrid law of action and reaction,......

 

I am going to do what I wanted to do in the first place: move this discussion to it's own thread, with these three posts as lead-off.  This will be all about your "flyline lift theory", versus what I consider the traditional mass/energy theories.  And, there IS a smattering of lift in there.  But the differences in models IS DRAMATIC.  The Energy model would, I believe, predict that one can flycast pretty normally in a vacuum, whereas Cary's Lift model would predict no cast at all.  And no one need fear violating Newton's third law or revolutionizing aeronautical principles.

 

Ironically, you are forcing me to do something I have put off doing for years.  That is, put together all of the mechanics of the simple flycast as I have analyzed them in one place at one time, and that analysis began in 1968.  I am unaware of any similar analysis.  KISS.  It isn't THAT complicated.  And I will not hide behind references to principles that only PhD's could understand.  It may or may not be the the complete story, but I will be honest about my uncertainties where they exist, and I encourage everyone to question or challenge as you wish.  I even hope you will principally participate.  But I warn you off trying to BS me as you just did.  

 

I will move this discussion and answer my question as I know it tomorrow.  And then pose further questions to myself to anyone.....or myself to answer.  I hope this thread is saved and continues to be useful for others regarding leader information. I wish Cary good luck with his excellent leader knowledge, and there will be no more discussion on this thread from me of casting mechanics.

 

Here is what Cary later added that got me so angry.  The question was:

 

"So let's start with the, in my mind, most glaring and dramatic aspect of a fly cast....and what should be the most simple.....since the line is motionless. Imagine the late stage of a long cast carrying a lot of (level belly) line....no shoot. What I see is a long stretch of post-loop fly line (no velocity....no aerodynamics.....no lift) hanging in the air, some of it for up to three seconds....defying gravity. What is holding it up?"

 

His initial answer is at the top of this post.  His later addition is as follows:

 

 

 

In order to “float” the weight force of the object must be supported by whatever it’s floating in. 

 

We know that if left to float for even a second or two, the fly line drops to the water’s surface, or the ground if practice casting on a lawn or in a parking lot. That is because air cannot support the fly line because of the effect of Newton’s Laws of Gravity. If the line were cast in a vacuum, then it would indeed float freely, uninfluenced by the forces of gravity. But, since I’m assuming we’re casting here on earth, this is not the case. 

 

How then could the line appear to be floating for a split second, before it’s flight completely deteriorates and it falls to the ground? 

 

Well, because there is no longer any Lift being generated by the moving fly-line, 

 

Remember me saying that Lift actually occurs then a moving flow of gas (in this case, air) is turned by a solid object (in this case, the fly line). The airflow is turned in one direction and the lift is generated in the opposite direction (according to Newton’s Third Law of Action and Reaction. 

 

I then pointed out that In fly casting, the head and leader of a fly line actually fly because of Lift, so - you cannot cast without Lift - which again is a Mechanical Force! Lift is not generated by a gravitational field or an electromagnetic field - where one object can affect another object without becoming in physical contact with each other. 

 

For lift to be generated, the solid body must be in contact with the fluid (in this case, that would be air). If there were no air, lift would not be possible in fly casting. As swimmers we can move the water in similar fashion to the way a bird flies through the air. In terms of flight principles, air and water are both fluids. Without those fluids, anything swimming or flying would sink or fall. 

 

Without motion, there is no lift. The act of casting imparts motion to the line. When motion ceases, Lift is overcome by the Drag of the object in flight.

 

Lift is generated by the difference in velocity between the solid object and the fluid (air, for our purposes). The fly line has to be started into motion and once it’s moving, the motion between the object and the air makes it possible for the fly line to be cast and stay in the air. 

 

It makes no difference at all whether the object moves through a static fluid, or whether the fluid moves past a static solid object. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. 

 

The reason I mention all this is because a force called “Drag” acts in the direction opposed to the motion. Drag is an aerodynamic force that is also present in a fly-cast or any other type of flight for that matter. Drag opposes the fly lines motion through the air and it is also generated by the mass of the fly line head and the leader and even the fly. 

 

Like all mechanical forces, drag must be generated in order to occur. Drag is created in a fly cast by the interaction with and the contact of the lin, Leader and Fly with the air and because we're hanging onto the line, it's forward momentum is ultimately stopped. This causes the flexible object (the line) to straighten in mid air. We can choose to release it and let it continue to fly, or we can stall it's flight and cause it to drop. 

 

If we allow the line to fly, Drag is generated because the solid fly line, Leader and fly are in contact with the air. Without air, we couldn’t cast a fly line and without air, a plane couldn’t fly unless it used some other force entirely (which is actually theoretically possible). 

 

Planes, like Fly-Lines, can "glide" for periods of time, but only because of motion and with motion, they create Lift for as long as the Lift is able to withstand the effects of Drag. 

 

The difference between the speed or “velocity” of the fly line and the air causes Drag to be generated. If the fly line isn’t moving, there can be no drag. In casting as with any object in “flight,” Drag is a force and it therefore becomes a “Vector Quantity” - one that has both a “Magnitude” and a “Direction.” Some Vector Quantities only have “Magnitude” and these are called Scalar Quantities.

 

A line that has straightened completely out has no Lift and no Drag. It is therefore 100% subject to Newton's Laws of Gravity. It is not Floating, because it has Mass. It may remain fairly straight as it drops, but drop it will surely do. Not float. 

 

This brings us back to Drag and why Drag is so important in Fly Casting. Drag acts in a direction that is opposite to the motion of the fly line (or any flying object). 

 

Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. There are many factors that affect the Magnitude of the Drag. Many factors also affect Lift but there are some factors that are unique to a Fly Line’s Drag. 

 

When a fly line moves through the air, the air resists the motion and pushes into the casting loop, which basically subjects the line to an aerodynamic force in a direction opposed to the motion. This is what Drag is and why it’s important to a cast.

 

Edited by Peter Patricelli

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Peter, you mentioned you wanted to argue when you wrote me privately. You certainly do now appear to be angry. 

 

Why not lay out what you believe to be true? It doesn't have to be an argument. At one time mankind thought the world was flat. Then, it was discovered to be round.

 

So far you failed to explain how the fly line got to be completely laid out straight in mid-air? Did it float up there or was it put in motion, in order to get there, laying out perfectly straight? 

 

According to the laws that govern flight as we understand them relative to the laws of gravity,  it absolutely IS possible for motion to occur in a vacuum, absent of gravity. 

 

Any object could move in a vacuum as long as motion had been established, this includes a fly line. If the vacuum was void of all liquid including air and other gases, and the environment was completely gravity free, then it would be easily possible for an object to move from one position to another. 

 

Think of an astronaut pushing off from one location inside a space capsule, and traveling to the other end of it. All that was needed was some type of propulsion = motion.

 

When we make a fly cast we impart motion to a motionless object. Since liquid (air) is present, the laws of aerodynamics apply. 

 

A cast that appears to be hanging in mid-air is still moving or it is falling.

 

That's because we drift the rod slightly once a cast straightens out but think about it, the line is still moving. Once the rod is stationary the line does not hang perfectly straight for up to 3 seconds. It may remain perfectly straight but it is falling because gravity kicks in and there is no longer any lift present. 

 

This concept as I describe it shouldn't make you angry. If it is wrong by all means point out why, maybe there is some great mystery in play here which the laws of flight do not apply to. 

 

This is not said in any way to intimidate you. Nor am I hiding behind anything. Nor am I an astrophysicist, though I do have a passion for flight, born from years of studying military aircraft. 

 

Maybe you understand something about a fly cast that is separate from both the laws of gravity and the principles of aerodynamics. Personally I do not but if you do, how about just laying it out for us?

 

Clearly you came here to argue. I'd politely and kindly ask you to change your tone and have a conversation rather than an argument. The world is full of enough A-holes who have nothing better to do than to argue, even about things they enjoy. I for one am not here to argue, bully, intimidate or hide. I'm here to help others and to learn and for no other reason.

 

Therefore I will not be baited into any type of argument. It's either a discussion or I'm afraid I will not participate in a manifestation of your anger.

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Posted (edited)

I should add.  Great opening post. Overwhelming at times but lots of information.  Thanks for taking the time to post this! 

 

By way of background, I do most of my saltwater fishing out of a boat and I don't do much "technical" trout fishing.  So with that in mind...

For saltwater using 7 - 10wt rods I use a 3 piece leader consisting of 40lb-25-15(ish).  Maybe a total of 8 - 10'.  Shorter as the day wears on due to fly changes.   Always blood knots and a triple surgeon loop to my fly line.  I value knot strength and easy of tying over all else.  I can tie that 3 piece leader in less than 2 mins.  I will use straight 30lb if I'm chasing bluefish. Maybe 6'.  Combo of Berkley's big game for the first 2 pieces and floro tippet for stiffness and abrasion resistance.

 

Salmon, steel and lake run brown (upstate NY). 30-20-15(10 for steel in the spring).  Same material as salt but 15' or longer leaders usually.  Two handed rod

 

Fresh/warm (bass, pike etc). 30-20-10 if I care otherwise straight 10lb floro (usually)

 

For trout I use a packaged tapered leader and 4 - 7x tippet tied with a surgeon knot.

 

I'm sure that I could probably improve my casting distance by paying more attention to the leader but I firmly in the KISS camp.

 

I guess I should have put something controversial in here just to fit in :-)

Edited by qecfly

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Posted (edited)

On 5/1/2022 at 0:23 PM, CaryGreene said:

Hi reel 'em, the rule of thumb is that your Leader Butt is .010 THINNER than the Tip of your Fly-Line. With a common 10wt Line, you should find that the Tip-Diameter of the line is between .044" and .046" - so you would SUBTRACT .010" and select an appropriate material with which to make your Leader Butt. The Leader Butt will likely be in the .034" to .036" range for most 10wt lines. 

Cary Thanks

I went up from my 40 lb butt to 60 lb and 80 lb butt using the 60/30/10 formula you provided.  What a difference. 

Went out today casting my single hand 10 wt rod and also my 13 ft two hand rod applying this formula and heavier butt.  Loop straighten out on the forward cast, back cast and fly leading the way every cast.  What a difference. You should have wrote this a long time ago.  It would've save me much grief. Lol

Thanks again. Good Luck.  

 

Edited by reel em in

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I'm curious if the stiffness of 40/60/80lb butt section improves the distance or diameter.  Some brands of floro are quite stiff for their diameter. Anyone played around with this concept?

 

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6 mins ago, reel em in said:

Cary Thanks

I went up from my 40 lb butt to 60 lb and 80 lb butt using the 60/30/10 formula you provided.  What a difference. 

Went out today casting my single hand 10 wt rod and also my 13 ft two hand rod applying this formula and heavier butt.  Loop straighten out forward cast, back cast and fly leading the way every cast.  What a difference. You should have wrote this a long time ago.  It would've save me much grief. Lol

Thanks again. Good Luck.  

 

My apologies for not writing about it sooner reel em.in! That said I'm glad you noticed a big benefit in performance. In simple terms the leader is helping you translate that energy in your line, which you are moving with your cast/rod/arm & body. It's also helping to support the mass of the fly which is made a lot more difficult to move because of the amount of drag it's creating.

 

As your loop straightens out the leader captures more of that energy instead of allowing it to dissipate and in turn the leaders greater mass is able to carry the fly all the way forward. 

 

When we watch practice casters throw fly lines around on solid ground we really don't know this what the leader is doing and how it's landing. 

 

However when we're actually fishing, we absolutely do notice and unfortunately we get conditioned to accept how our flies seem to always land. Then when we switch to an optimal leader, it kind of does feel like a night and day difference and that should bring a smile to all of our faces while we are actually fishing. 

 

Other fly casters, even experienced ones, might notice that your fly is straightening out like a rope but there's a good chance they will not understand that the leader is helping that happen. Obviously it wouldn't be possible without your cast, your line speed and ultimately your loop and its angle of attack against the forces that oppose it.

 

Great to hear that you're actually fishing and definitely appreciate the feedback as always!

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25 mins ago, reel em in said:

Cary Thanks

I went up from my 40 lb butt to 60 lb and 80 lb butt using the 60/30/10 formula you provided.  What a difference. 

Went out today casting my single hand 10 wt rod and also my 13 ft two hand rod applying this formula and heavier butt.  Loop straighten out on the forward cast, back cast and fly leading the way every cast.  What a difference. You should have wrote this a long time ago.  It would've save me much grief. Lol

Thanks again. Good Luck.  

 

Absolutely a pleasure and don't forget casting distance isn't really going to be improved by a Leader. The leader will help lay the fly out straight in front of the cast and turn over even a bulky fly. Unfortunately it's not going to help your line go any further. 

 

It will however definitely make actual saltwater  fishing a lot easier and it will improve your results. When a big bulky fly is turning over easily, this makes it possible to carry more line in the air and I think.it makes the loops a lot more stable. 

 

When a big fly has a lot of drag on it and the leader is too thin and can't support it what happens is the fly goes zinging off to the side and that definitely causes problems. It can be a little bit intimidating and I think most fly casters even myself would back off a little bit and try not to throw as far as I could be throwing if I could get that fly to turn over. 

 

Basically the fly begins to behave erratically and a well-designed leader negates this from happening.

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22 mins ago, qecfly said:

I'm curious if the stiffness of 40/60/80lb butt section improves the distance or diameter.  Some brands of floro are quite stiff for their diameter. Anyone played around with this concept?

 

Hi qecfly, 

 

I've never found a leader to increase my casting distance. Stiffer Leaders layout straighter and therein lies the advantage to stiffer material. If we look at most commercially available leader material it's classified these days as Medium Stiff. I think the reason for that is that leaders also need to be a little bit flexible in order to cooperate with the loop so it seems like if they are too stiff they don't cooperate enough simply because they aren't flexible enough.

 

You are definitely right some of the new fluorocarbons are very thin for their diameter which I'm guessing is what you meant to say? If so yes, it's crazy how the industry is advancing. My very first leaders that I ever used in trout fishing were made out of gut. Things have changed an awful lot since the late 60s & early 70s and the advances that were happening back then were blowing the old timers away so imagine that! Graphite and Fiberglass were huge inventions!

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Such a great thread.
Helped me out tremendously. 
Maybe keeping it at the top it will help somebody else out. 

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1 min ago, reel em in said:

Such a great thread.
Helped me out tremendously. 
Maybe keeping it at the top it will help somebody else out. 

Excellent to hear reel em in! It's really just the tip of the iceberg. I have a TON of fresheater leader info to share but getting time to put it all up is the issue these days. I made a post in the Whole Line thread today that reiterates what I said in the beginning of this thread. Per NASA's .gov website:

 

Lift is generated by the difference in velocity between the solid object and the fluid. There must be motion between the object and the fluid: no motion, no lift. It makes no difference whether the object moves through a static fluid, or the fluid moves past a static solid object. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. Drag acts in the direction opposed to the motion.

 

When we think of a fly line loop unrolling and churning air the overline moves to the same plane as the underline, the Leader helps to deal with effects of drag and certain flies created a lot more drag than others do. A stiffer leader helps to support the mass of the fly and the a leader that carries maximum energy will help to move the fly the full length of the leader. 

 

The benefit to the fly-fisherman is a nice, straight cast that they are instantly in-touch with once it lands. 

 

Glad you liked the thread. It will probably get a lot better as it goes along. 

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