CaryGreene

Leader Design - Saltwater and Freshwater

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214 posts in this topic

26 mins ago, bmac said:

I'm generally in agreement and don't doubt your experience in the field at all.  It's just that my own experience joining mono or flouro lines of greatly different diameters has led me to believe that a double or triple surgeons knot or a Yucatan or Albright are more reliable than a blood knot.  Maybe not, and it may boil down to cinching that blood knot completely.  I learned a long time ago that the choice of knot is way less important than how well you tie it.  Thanks Cary for giving all of these details a forum for thought and discussion.  

Wait a minute. Somebody stop the music..

 

bmac, when joining two dissimilar materials (like mono and fluoro) ...NEVER use a Blood Knot. Do use a Harvey Knot (orvis) or better yet, a Double Uni or a Crazy Alberto..etc. 

 

My apologies here, for not picking up that you were talking about joining dissimilar materials. No matter how good a knot you tie, if it's the WRONG knot - it won't hold under pressure. 

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12 hours ago, CaryGreene said:

Mike, if you want ruler straight presentations you need Blood Knots. Watch the video I posted and we'll circle back okay you CRAZY (like a fox) Brit!

Cary

 

Sorry I was waiting for the straight bit. :howdy:It is commonly aimed at water knots. The leader still lies pretty straight. Not enough to cause any fishing issues and any droppers are much stronger than blood knot ones.

Interesting that you can in fact tye good double bloods in vastly

dissimilar diameters . So that kills an oft repeated myth then. We got choices blood, water, or Uni.  Not bad for a simple joining of leaders.
I am MAAH

 

 mikey

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11 hours ago, CaryGreene said:

bmac, when joining two dissimilar materials (like mono and fluoro) ...NEVER use a Blood Knot. Do use a Harvey Knot (orvis) or better yet, a Double Uni or a Crazy Alberto..etc. 

 

My apologies here, for not picking up that you were talking about joining dissimilar materials. No matter how good a knot you tie, if it's the WRONG knot - it won't hold under pressure. 

Thanks for the reminder.  I like fluoro tippets. I'm going to have to learn the Harvey knot. Looks like a very solid connection.   

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16 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Water knots are pretty decent for joining  mono or  flouro. They form better to. The ubiquitous Double blood knot I am not convinced by very much.  
Uni knots pretty good to.

Knot failure occur because the knot is tied poorly or too big a load is placed on it.

How many tie good knots.

 

Mike

Mike,

They say: "If you can't tie a knot..tie a lot"  ))

Paul

 

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a great knot for joining different lines is the j-knot  ( the one developed by a guide in SW FL) but best for spinning leaders not so much fly leaders. I switched years ago since I was having troubles with my uni to uni knots failing. Since I switched I have never had a j-knot slip. That is also with braid to fluoro as well as any combination & big diameter variances.

 

Easy to tie & I still use it on some fly leaders but it's bulkier than a blood & the leader is not as straight. In a pinch though it's a great holding super strong knot that is easy to tie.

 

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Posted (edited)

Saw this on another website, Bruce Kruk’s simplified leader system for Spey casting SH:

7-9ft of 12lb Chameleon and then 3'-5' of fluorocarbon tippet down to 4x in size 

or DH: 

15-17ft of 18lb Chameleon and then 3'-5' of 10lb or 12lb fluorocarbon tippet.

Does it have any relevance here?  What can we learn from this diametrically opposite viewpoint?

1. Spey vs Overhead casting leaders different.

2. Casting smaller flies vs large bulky flies.

3. Size of butt end and fluorocarbon tippet closer so a double surgeons knot can be used. 

 

Edited by flyrad10
Additional material

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3 hours ago, bmac said:

Thanks for the reminder.  I like fluoro tippets. I'm going to have to learn the Harvey knot. Looks like a very solid connection.   

I think that would be a great choice. It's super easy to tie. 

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1 hour ago, CaryGreene said:

I think that would be a great choice. It's super easy to tie. 

In fact, since we've had a lot people asking about this knot, here is the video I promised our SOL readers. The ideal, strong, reliable, no-slip Tippet Knot! Perfect for joining two "dissimilar" materials. Could you technically make an entire 3-Piece Leader using this knot? Yes.

 

Do I advocate using the Blood Knot instead? Yes, if you can tie it easily and if you are using "similar" materials. For those that use Fluorocarbon Tippets and Monofilament Leader-Butt and Mid-Sections, the Tippet Knot comes into play. 

 

You can also join braid to Monofilament with this knot. Surprisingly, it will hold. Do I like a Double-Uini Better when using Braid or Gel Spun? Yes. 

 

This is a GREAT late night on the beach or fast Tippet Knot during a Blitz knot. Use it with confidence, it's served me very well over the years. I have landed Tuna, GT, big Stripers and Blues, Snook, Redfish, Billfish, big Tarpon, Bones, Permit, freight -train Wild Rainbows, enormous Brown Trout, Atlantic Salmon and other Salmonids...on and on, etc - with this knot. It's battle tested. Like me! 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, yarddog59 said:

Mike,

They say: "If you can't tie a knot..tie a lot"  ))

Paul

 

Yes. That used to be a military saying to.

 

mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Posted (edited)

47 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Yes. That used to be a military saying to.

 

mike

Definitively !... as the words echo in my head from a retired Navy Seal. We were  canvas tent camping  

( brookie adventure) in the high Allegheny mountains with a wicked wind driven thunder boomer heading our way. The Marlin spike hitch held the tent down nicely.... along with the double crossed stakes!

Paul

Edited by yarddog59

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Lol, grew up sharing a dock with relatives who were former army, navy, & coast guard. I'd often forget a bunch of knots and they'd just tell me if I think it's a bad knot just tie it twice :) 

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Interesting stuff. Here's a twist. Up til now I've not used fluorocarbon much. And lately, mono to a 20# tippet has worked well.

 

But if i'm carrying a lightning leader tied, say, 40-30-20 and I replace the 20# tippet with 16# fluoro, the system doesn't work very well. Too much difference in diameter, I think,  from a 30# mono mid section to the 16# fluorocarbon tippet.

 

I have a friend who swears he simply uses a leader of straight 16# fluoro. That just doesn't feel right to me either.

 

So assume you're albie fishing with a 10 wt - what sort of leader adjustments would you make?

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On 8/24/2022 at 8:52 PM, CaryGreene said:

bmac, when joining two dissimilar materials (like mono and fluoro) ...NEVER use a Blood Knot. Do use a Harvey Knot (orvis) or better yet, a Double Uni or a Crazy Alberto..etc. 

 

My apologies here, for not picking up that you were talking about joining dissimilar materials. No matter how good a knot you tie, if it's the WRONG knot - it won't hold under pressure. 

I have always found diameter to be the limiting factor with blood knots. Never had much problem with nylon to flouro. That is standard procedure for my trout rigs. Always has been. Start with mono nylon and finish with floro. 
 

Most saltwater stuff in NE I’m fishing a single piece of floro. Sometimes with a heavier butt section if I am feeling fancy.  
 

what is the rationale behind the dissimilar materials on the blood knot ? Never heard that.  

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Hope everyone is having a great fall season. Fishing has been good this year. Just doubling back on the proper way to match the Tip of your fly-line to your Leader Butt, when you're making a Lightning Leader. Let's review the basic concept at this point in the thread.

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We had also discussed using a slightly longer mid section, to make using short tippets possible without having to re-tie your leader. The same strategy can be used on Leader Butts, so you can build a new Mid-Section from time to time. Both Butt and Mid can be slightly long (5 to 10" is typical). 

 

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