Mike Oliver

Whole Fly Line Challenge.

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Weight-balance flies. Posted in the Fly Tying Forum that I was experimenting with them. A large, heavily dressed fly acts like a sail. Weight is used to counteract the negative effect of the mass to make it move better with the fly line. I'm still experimenting starting with smaller flies (not 13") and working up to larger flies. Gunnar is right in that it takes some trial and error to get it right, so I'm weighing the lead I'm attaching to each fly, record it, cast and adjust. Thread keeps getting better, and casting well in all conditions is the focus.

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Cary,

 

The  20 Foot leaders are a total pain to cast and fish. But they have to be this length in Straight Line Buzzer fishing for depth control. We can’t turn them over simply with a cast. We have to have the wind on our side.  Because some of us will fish up to four flies we also need to cast very open loops in an attempt to reduce horrendous tangling. In a tail wind the leader can not straighten we just have to ignore that. We still need to produce high line speed to get required distance and to assist the wind in getting the leader to land straight. But with a side wind this is not a big problem. Our loops are large but energised. Essential that we make the fly line go over the tip of the rod. Very long strokes and the stops are not hard.

 

Salt water off the beach my leaders are typically 4 to 12 feet long. If the planets are in the same rotation as my addled brain then on the 12 footers I may build a two part leader. Rough stuff 30 to 20lb. Straight ones for sand 20 and 30 around rocks. Talking Stripers only.

They work. But that does not mean I will not try your leader formula. I will. Anything to break the tedium of  doing things the same is good. Complacency and all that brings. Lol

Now going back to the long range for fun discussion having almost emptied my reel of fly line I want to go further much further purely to see if I can improve my technique and strength to do that.

So when time and funds allow I will go the SA Competition  5 wt.  I will find out what the comp  legal leaders are and get to work. I have an excellent mentor to help to. I have a ruck of different weight rods to try to so it will be a lot of fun.
The spin off will be using less effort for same distance for my fishing.

Thats important for us all but especially as we age and that is where I am at.

But age should never kill ambition or destroy dreams. That is an all too common trap that we can fall into.

 

Mike

 

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14 mins ago, South Shore Fly said:

Weight-balance flies. Posted in the Fly Tying Forum that I was experimenting with them. A large, heavily dressed fly acts like a sail. Weight is used to counteract the negative effect of the mass to make it move better with the fly line. I'm still experimenting starting with smaller flies (not 13") and working up to larger flies. Gunnar is right in that it takes some trial and error to get it right, so I'm weighing the lead I'm attaching to each fly, record it, cast and adjust. Thread keeps getting better, and casting well in all conditions is the focus.

Good discipline weighing and recording. Ok much as I don’t like how these big flies need to be cast. I know that if a Bunker Blitze was going on I would be wanting to take part. Because it’s fishing and exciting.

The thought of a fly that big getting crushed is the stuff of dreams.

 

mike

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Mike Oliver said:

Why Cary?
 

mike

The weighted fly technique will carry a leader straight and aerodynamically when ""shooting" a compact head it keeps everything going straight towards the target and as a result, much longer casts are possible. I can cast a full Wulff Bermuda Taper line with this technique, which Mark Sedotti perfected back in that's 80's. The key is high line speed and proper timing - in this style of casting. 

 

Generally speaking, I rarely use this technique when fishing as my leader system maximizes any fly line quite nicely. 

 

Unrelated - It's often more about the line/leader than it is the rod when casting for distance. When using lines with longer heads, holding line in the air is the key. Fly rods are mostly designed to feel good at normal casting distances. Some obviously do better at shorter to mid range distances, while others are better at longer distances. Rarely is a rod truly good at all distances. Therefore, the caster must adjust - casting off the rod's tip in close and using the rods backbone to carry line at longer distances.

 

Some rods have a feel that is described as parabolic. A true parabola is a curve in which every point in the curve is equal distance from a point called a focus and a straight line called a directrix. A truly parabolic rod would have a U-shaped curve with a vertex and an axis of symmetry that divides the rod's bend, under load, into a parabola two congruent pieces. Most rods today deflect at various points but do not bend parabolically. However, their tips, sometimes into their mid sections, can bend a surprising amount under load. Rod manufacturers have made significant advances to eliminate tip wobble, to reduce vibration and ultimately, to align particles. This all adds up to help a caster feel and thus predict, where the fly line is at all times during a cast and this is very beneficial when carrying line at distance.

 

If a caster who is holding a significant amount of castable line in the air can bend a rod's tip or tip & mid section into somewhat of a U-shape, the rod suddenly comes to life. Of course some rods will bend more than others. Manufacturers have done a lot to enhance blank recovery time which means once the blank flexes, it returns to being straight very fast and this enhances line speed. Try doing this with a Double Taper fly line. How much line can your favorite rods hold in the air? Then, make notes on the rod's preferences and if shooting line is the goal, look for lines with head lengths that are similar. 

 

Next, test various grain weights of these longer head lines and find which one works best on the rod. It should be easily apparent. 

 

Lastly, build the right leader and away you go. You'll have "optimized" the rod of choice for distance casting. 

 

**This is why Spey rods can cast so far using water load (spec casting techniques). The rod bends deeply fairly uniformly and this is a tremendous asset when holding line in the air prior to sending it towards the target.

 

***In overhead casting, line speed is built with a few false casts as we hold more and more line in the air. Rods that are described by some as being stiff or fast, sometimes bend a surprising amount when carrying line. Sometimes they don't. For distance casting, I look for rods that come to life under load. They have to have enough backbone to carry significant line in the air and they have to bend comfortably. 

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In this series of photos, I'm casting a Sage Medod Elite rod with a 300 grain Airflo Depth Finder Big Game line & my  60%-30%-20% formula (using a slightly longer tippet than I usually do). 

 

I'm throwing 125' to the far bank in a salt pond outflow and you can't really see it from the pictures but the current was moving steadily right to left. The channel is at least 10 ft deep in the middle and by the time the fly had swung into the zone it might have gotten down three or four ft'. Bass were taking silversides imitations on this particular October late afternoon. 

 

The Method has been described as a rod that doesn't bend much, and many feel that the entire series deflects one rod size heavier. Of course I beg to differ and as you can see, when carrying a large amount of line in the air, the rod appears to bend deeply, even the butt section of the rod is exhibiting a little flex.

 

I dropped 125' cast after 125' casts routinely and fairly effortlessly with only two or maybe three backcasts depending. Pulling away from the target and leaning into the target, line moving 180 degrees to and from, loop rolling smoothly thanks to my leader's effect on it.

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Edited by CaryGreene

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1 hour ago, Mike Oliver said:

Ok much as I don’t like how these big flies need to be cast. I know that if a Bunker Blitze was going on I would be wanting to take part. Because it’s fishing and exciting.

The thought of a fly that big getting crushed is the stuff of dreams.

 

mike

Exactly. I don't want to spend time at the vise tying larger (over 6") flies unless I know I can get them where they need to go. This season, I'll test some smaller flies with masses of fibers, bucktail, and feathers with some weight added to counteract the mass. When I prove that it improves my range, I'll start tying bigger flies over the coming winter. But we all know the feeling when we've got fish feasting on big pogies or bunker and wish we had some flies equal to that size.

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Posted (edited)

Cary

Since you oened the door to leaders - again - I still don't see, as valid, the concept of matching the leader diameter to the fly line's tip diameter.

Depending on the leader material one uses - stiffness, or lack thereof, has to be a consideration.

 

Mono fishing line is limp.  Most fluro tippet material is stiffer than mono fishing line.

I use Wulff BTT almost exclusively - Short version - whose tip is much limper than the 80-90# fluro I would have to use with your formular.

 

So - question - what DO you use for leader material - Mono fishing line - or - Fluro tippet material.

My buddy Jon on SOL says your system works. I'm still not convinced.

I used to use 60# Butt (4.5' - 2.5' - 1.5' - tippet) RIO Fluro on a #9 or #10 Wulff BTT and found that the leader did not "roll-out" as nice as my furled leaders.

Tremendous tendency to hinge and throw the butt hi in the air and just "flopped" over without unrolling.

Talk to me.

Herb

PS - just measured the tip of my Wulff BTT #11: 0.048".

Diameter of 80# RIO Fluroflex tippet material: 0.030".

By your standards I will have to use a butt section of over 100#

Edited by HL

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Posted (edited)

I might add that fly line design (front loaded head and/or short front tapers) can help turnover.

 

So does rod leg tension (the rod leg is the section of fly line between the rod tip and loop bottom).  Increase tension near the end of the cast by pulling back on the line, either directly or more commonly by raising the rod tip, and it will help drive turnover.

 

Likewise, checking the shoot by stopping the line running through the line hand spikes tension and drives the loop forward and over.

 

Loop shape as well as fly weight and drag are also issues.

 

 

Edited by numbskull

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, HL said:

Cary

Since you oened the door to leaders - again - I still don't see, as valid, the concept of matching the leader diameter to the fly line's tip diameter.

Depending on the leader material one uses - stiffness, or lack thereof, has to be a consideration.

 

Mono fishing line is limp.  Most fluro tippet material is stiffer than mono fishing line.

I use Wulff BTT almost exclusively - Short version - whose tip is much limper than the 80-90# fluro I would have to use with your formular.

 

So - question - what DO you use for leader material - Mono fishing line - or - Fluro tippet material.

My buddy Jon on SOL says your system works. I'm still not convinced.

I used to use 60# Butt (4.5' - 2.5' - 1.5' - tippet) RIO Fluro on a #9 or #10 Wulff BTT and found that the leader did not "roll-out" as nice as my furled leaders.

Tremendous tendency to hinge and throw the butt hi in the air and just "flopped" over without unrolling.

Talk to me.

Herb

PS - just measured the tip of my Wulff BTT #11: 0.048".

Diameter of 80# RIO Fluroflex tippet material: 0.030".

By your standards I will have to use a butt section of over 100#

Hi HL,

 

To begin to answer your question, I will use an analogy derived from years of freshwater Trout Fishing. One of the most supple fly lines ever made was the original Scientific Anglers Sharkskin series of fly lines. Talk abou limp! The older Wulff Triangle Taper lines were also very limp and supple, but their coatings were extremely delicate and they didn't wear well throughout a season. That said, the Wulff lines floated very well, thanks to the amount of PVC in the line's Jacket. 

 

The Sharkskin lines made a weird noise going through the guides, beause they were extremely textured - a design inspired by the feet of aquatic insects. I had always used Maxima (Brown) leader material for my Butt sections and I wasn't prone to changing - nor did I have to. I made elaborate Dry Fly Leaders based what George Harvey taught me to do, when he'd visit Roscoe every summer. He'd ultimately be tying up some leaders for Walt Dette and I'd listen and take notes. God bless both of them for never being agitated by the nosey little kid. I was of course their paperboy.

 

Too young to have my own route, I was "pimped out" by a town bully who built me a bike in excange for me becoming his indentured paper-delivering servant. He got all the parts for my gold Schwinn from the junk yard and once the bike was completed, he used a gold-fleck rattle-can to paint her up and even included Gold Fleck handle bar girps with tassels, how could I say no? Of course Walt's house happened to be a fly-shop so I landed there nearly every day, deliberately learning to make it my last stop. 

 

The Dry Fly leaders I fashioned for the Sharkskin line were comprised of Maxima Brown ( a harder, non supple mono, which I used for the Butt sections. Then, I transitioned into Frog-Hair Mono for the mid sections. Frog-Hair was nice and soft and the reason I used it was not because of the suppleness of the Sharkskin line. I used it specifically to help absorb drag caused by micro-currents on the waters surface. This type of thinking is irrelevant with regard to Saltwater fly-fishing. More on that in a moment, but first...

 

Many Saltwater lines, from 8wt on up to 12wt will average between .040" to .050". Using a micrometer, I've noticed that tip diameters on fly lines do range quite a bit and are almost always not listed by the manufacturer in their line specs. As you just discovered, your 11 WT Wulf BTT tip-diameter is .048, which falls right into the ranges I've also encountered. 

 

On the lines which I fish most often, which are Scientific Anglers and Airflo, along witha few Rio lines, I can start with .030 for 8wt to 10wt lines. If fact, most fly lines in the 8wt to 10wt class will have Tip diameters of .038 to .045, with a few oddball lines being even slighly thinner.

 

Given your Wulf BTT line is .048", you'd ideally like to begin with a material that is .038" ideally,  to no thinnter than .033" which you could use in a pinch. 

 

I've often said that with trout fishing, leader formulas matter a lot more than they do in saltwater. Trout anglers often build leaders to create slack. In the salt, we want exactly the oppositea ruler-straight presentation without slack, and right on target so when you start stripping line, you immediately also start moving the fly the way you intend.  

 

Saltwater leaders, in effect, are "streamer" leaders. In salt water, we should build leaders that don't taper too quickly and transfer power all the way to the fly for that straight-line presentation we're looking for on longer casts. 

 

Less than 10% of your overall leader should be thin tippet material. When designing the leader's length, use very long butt sections. Instead of 60%/20%/20%, shoot for 70&/20%/10% or 60%/30/%10%. 

 

It may be surprising that I'm not recommending more gradual leader mid sections. The reason again is - we're not building Trout leaders, which are designed to create slack in order to absorb drag when we drift dry flies. We're building what a Trout fisherman might classify as a Streamer Leader. 

 

What material is the right material? Fluorocarbon is as you note and by nature stiffer and more abrasion-resistant than nylon, but it's not always the best solution. It sinks quickly, and sometimes when I'm bonefishing that means my fly snags the bottom too easily. When I'm tarpon fishing, the fly needs to be suspended where the fish can see it. Monofilament leaders are a better choice anytime you require a neutral buoyancy. 

 

The kind of Monofilament that makes by far the best leaders is not soft, supple monofilament - but the opposite of this. Stiffer monofilament lays out straighter than limper material, so you can contact your fly immediately when you start the retrieve, and unlike fluorocarbon, it has almost neutral density, so you won't be raking the bottom and this is the main reason for using this kind of material in certain situations, instead of Flurocarbon. 

 

There are a couple of monofilament materials I like. Hatch Professional Series Saltwater Leader is one of them. It's a hard/stiff nylon polymer manufactured in Japan. I go through a lot of this stuff every season. 

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Another Monofilament I love is Scientific Anglers Absolute Hard Mono, it's made with proprietary copolymer blends that are designed to drastically reduce water absorption while maintaining an optimal suppleness for high knot strength. Absolute nylon leaders and tippet have a 29% higher wet knot strength compared to their previous "Hard Mono" material and it also features up to 40% higher wet knot strength when compared to many other copolymers. This material is a bit more supple than HPS and may wind up being one you should take a look at to match with the Wulff Bermuna Triangle Taper line. 

 

Saltwater flats fishing is a shallow game where the bottom is a constant real and present threat. Most nylons are easily battered by mussel beds, coral, and barnacle-crusted dock pilings, but Scientific Anglers Absolute Hard Mono stands up great. I also use this material for New England Stripers when I'm fishing around shallow boulder fields and jagged rocks, it's great around Jetties, when Stripers or Blues are cruising these "walls" in search of bait.  Bluefish teeth don't do much at all to the AR, it stands up great. 

 

If you wanted to make a leader out of this type of copolymer, to match your Wulf BTT 11 wt line, you'd start with a Butt section of 60# (.040) or, 50# (.036) which would both work. For bigger flies, use the 60# of course. Then you could drop to 30# (.028") and then go directly to whatever Tippet you need. If Big Bluefish are around, try 60#/40# and then use 30# for Tippet. That should fend them off. You could also go 60#50#/40# if you had to. 

 

6265d561e8b9f_Screenshot2022-04-246_55_15PM.png.8ba432ea46122dc3ef9cff92020f5bea.png

 

Cost effecive solutions for Monofilament might start and end with Berkley Trilene Big-Game material which has been a favorite for many over the years. It may actually be more what you're looking for though in terms of if you actually wanted a softer, limper material to match the BTT characteristics. However, using my Sharkskin fly line analogy, I made dry fly leaders with Maxima Butt sections and they worked awesome. The limp fly line functioned superbly in combination with the stiff leader butt, which simply dragged the softer, more supple mid-secion and tippet through the air in a perfectly straight line. 

 

You see, a soft fly-line will easily pull and deliver a stiff leader. The leader still bends and unrolls fine. Stiffer materials lay out straighter than softer ones and that's important in streamer fishing 

 

Big Game has always been for those that want a more general monofilament that is both abrasion resistant and a bit on the "slightly stiffer" side when compared to standard Monofilaments. I'm of course not a huge fan of Big Game for Fly Fishing leaders as Butt sections or mid sections, as I don't find it to be stiff enough. I like the Hatch or the Sci A HMAR a lot better for laying out ropes at distances over 100' even. 

6265e363e0172_Screenshot2022-04-247_54_41PM.png.38d25717c15968b7612f5b5d25f5ebd8.png

 

 

 

 

Chasing Albies around during the day, or casting into fast moving current from the boat, or launching line into deeper cuts or places where the fish are down more than 5 feet requires a leader that cooperates and it's then that I'll use Fluorocarbon to match these situations. A fluorocarbon leader line can make a difference in some situations.

 

Between Monofilament and Fluorocarbon, there are several differences that can sometimes be considered an advantage or at other times become a disadvantage and choosing which to use should simply depending on the conditions you are fishing in (not so much your fly line's stiffness or limpness. 

 

First, fluorocarbon can be less visible than monofilament because the refraction index of Fluorocarbons is in the 1.42 range, which is close to the 1.33 value of water.

 

Second, fluorocarbon is dense which makes it abrasion resistant, thin, and it when in water because it has a Specific Gravity heavier than water. Obviously, when fishing floating lines and floating lures, Fluorobarbon is a poor choice for leader material, but that goes without saying I would imagine.   

 

Fluorocarbon is great to use a leader in most cases. Fluorocarbon helps against abrasive mouths of fish like Stripers, Bluefish, Tarpon and Snook.   Some species like salmon are not particulary leader shy and a standard monofilament line can be used without changing the catch rates. Night fishing with cloud cover or low moon-phases don't require Fluorocarbon. 

 

If I wanted a slightly softer, more supple Fluorocarbon to match your 11wt BTT line, I'd reach for Yozuri H.D Carbon "Clear" which is probably one of the softest I've tried. You could use 80# for the Butt-Section, which has a diamter of .0.033" and, if casting larger flies, you would bump up 100# which comes in at .0375" and this would be an ideal match for your line, which has a Tip-Diamter as you noted of .048" >> so you would use the 60%-30%-10% formula and in Test# speak for this material, say you're making a 9' leader with an extra 10% of Tippet, you'd want 65" of 100# / 32.5" of 50# or 40# (try the 40# first) and then you'd go straight to your 12" Tippet, which you could lengthen to about 20# if you so desired. 

6265d6e172804_Screenshot2022-04-247_01_26PM.png.605ad20e9895c213f1ea0b25dce05e96.png

 

like I said, I don't like soft and supple saltwater leaders, I in fact want the exact opposite. Therefore, I usually use the Standard Yozuri HD Carbon "Pink" varietal.

 

Quick movements from strong fish can cause Nylon to stretch, whereas this problem is negated by using Fluorocarbon. The "Clear" is also very good at resisting scrapes and nicks, though a few big Bluefish will even nick up wire bite guards. I feel the "Pink" is actually better at remaining clear underwater, once the line is nicked up a bit. 

 

Some companies are now making very thin diameter Fluorocarbon and the Seaguar Premier is a double structure fluorocarbon which is a blend of two resins. It is a great line to use when low visibility and abrasion resistance are important for fishing conditions.

 

6265d86426faa_Screenshot2022-04-247_07_58PM.png.31cb1d5ff6a75359d9bc50f5691007d0.png

 

Another really good, perhaps slightly higher-end Fluorocarbon is made by Momoi and I've long been a fan of their Diamond line on Conventional distance casting reels. Hi-Catch Fluorocarbon is excellent material for making  fly-fishing leaders. 

 

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Screenshot 2022-04-24 7.03.07 PM.png

Edited by CaryGreene

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Good discipline weighing and recording. Ok much as I don’t like how these big flies need to be cast. I know that if a Bunker Blitze was going on I would be wanting to take part. Because it’s fishing and exciting.

The thought of a fly that big getting crushed is the stuff of dreams.

 

mike

You could also just use my leader formula and a beefy fly line. I fish lots of big patterns this way and they turn over perfectly fine. They also cast fine. 

 

The first mistake fly fisherman often make is that they asdume large flies are hard to cast. Of course this is true when they use the wrong leader. 

 

However, the Right leader makes all the difference in the world in fly fishing both in freshwater and in saltwater and it's the most commonly overlooked aspect to fly fishing that there is. I would go so far as to say that 95% of all fly fishermen don't put enough thought into this particular department. Of course that's an estimate I have no research to back it up other than having worked in the fishing industry for half of my life. 

 

I rarely meet fly fishermen that I would consider truly advanced, both in terms of their casting and their knowledge bases. I had one fairly cocky customer one time tell me to step outside and show him 125 feet.and then he would listen. The other workers in the Fly shop were gasping.

 

We took out our commercial measuring tape wheel and I gave it to the guy and told him to go stand at 125 ft. I then cast past him, set the rod down and went back into the fly shop. He and one of the guys began casting for about a half hour and I considered my work done. 

 

Actually I really didn't care whether he listened or not as I did that more for fun than anything. I can't even call if he bought anything or not. I think he did purchase a line but I can't quite remember.

 

In my opinion if someone finds it fun to weight bulky flies and conduct experiments then the more power to them! It's better than  them spending their free time destructively right? Is it still really fly casting if you're doing that? That's a debate for people who care because I don't!  All I know is that it works, that I've tried it, and that it's a way to cast further with commercial lines that have shorter heads. 

 

But lest we forgot, my custom 15 ft heavily overweighted heads that I made in the late 80s were casting out of the park on spey rods with pivoting open face fly reels, which were actually Alvie's in disguise. This allowed me to connect braided fishing line to the heads via a swivel and I could shoot the entire contraption right off of the reel so there was no need for a stripping basket. Then I simply reel it back in. It was thought up as a way to allow a spin fisherman to throw a fly without a casting egg and a more conventional rod. The lines featured 3' two piece leaders that consisted of a butt section and a Tippet. I had a couple dozen of them made in Colorado and I took a basic Spey rod and installed a curly cue pivoting guide which was flipped up during the cast so is not to interfere with the shooting of the braided line. The curlicue was then flipped into place and after the cast was made the braided line was placed into it then the real was pivoted to a closed position and then you simply reel it in just like you would with an Alvey. 

 

The experiment proved to me that there are some really elaborate ways to waste time. Weighting flies kind of falls into this category but I shouldn't be want to judge anyone else because I've already proved I'm a master time waster second to none! LOL

 

 

Edited by CaryGreene

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Posted (edited)

Cary,

 

Interesting Post. I have to be leader aware for the AAPGAI assessment. I can see much disagreement when I have to talk leaders to them.

 

Turn over by leader design I totally get when chucking a size 18 dry fly or nymph. And yes I design my Trout leaders to give me best stealth and drag free potential. The other vital ingredient is for slack line presentation casts.

Now with 10 wt single hand rods and biggish flies. 2/0 Deceivers a straight shot of 9 ‘ 20 lb clear mono worked. That leader was not the reason the fly went out straight it was wind or the amount of energy put into the cast. Ok when I go up to 12 feet to fish subsurface with a floating line the straight mono still works. Maybe it will work better with your 60, 30 ,10 ratio. I will try it to see.

 

I have always pondered just how much a leader does to turn over straight verses how it was cast. If mass moves mass then a bit of thin nylon is not going to turn over a nice damp hairy Deceiver. Can’t move a house brick even with a fast moving base ball.

I had a very interesting day with a Sol member trying to cast his bloody great big herring flies in sheltered climes. TH  with 550grains. Took me quite a while until I found a way to cast these beasts. It was not a normal fly cast. I would need to do it to know but I suspect not even a 1000 grains would be able to cast these beasts in the same way I cast a 2/0 Deceiver with 550 grains. These were not weight balanced flies.

In a breeez even in your face no chance. A guy with a SH probably would have topped himself. No leader on earth is going to have enough energy to get these things out straight with a normal cast.

Herb likes leaders in a tapered design for the salt. I could be missing a trick. June time is my next opportunity for 3 weeks on the bounce to get into salty water again so I will give it a go. Sorry but I like Limp leader stuff. Berkeley XL. Don’t like the tough the XT.

Maxima is quite stiff. Might have some Mason Hard.

Off to see grand daughter at swim class ,to be continued.

Good discussion. Why is this thread not falling apart by aggressive views. Lol

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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On 2022/04/24 at 4:27 PM, Mike Oliver said:

SA Competition  5 wt

Mr O,

 

The line mentioned, is it the Mastery Expert Distance?

 

ZA

 

 

Mastery-Expert-Distance-Comp-2.jpg

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Man, i would not have thought tippet leader in saltwater would amount to much but if one is tossing fly's 125 feet I can not argue that- for what it is worth I like the orvis mirage 30 pound to 20 pound to 16 all about 7 foot length. Will mess around with leaders and see if i can gain some distance. 

Thank you   

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Jersey.

 

Got to be straight with you a leader is not going to give you an inch more distance however you tie it.

 

mike

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Thanks- didnt think it would, but I never considered leader as anything but the method to attach a fly, but then I start to read all this other talk on leaders and start to scratch my head thinking I may be missing something.  A better leader designed may eliminate  some wind knots i do occasionally get and possible turn over bigger flys,  Its at least worth exploring that.  Leaders for freshwater trout/smallmouth or one of the great underrated fish, carp, are a different story. 

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