Mike Oliver

Whole Fly Line Challenge.

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10 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

 

I am doing a bit of teaching now and it is amazing just how few guys will turn their heads to watch their back cast to the end. This is massive and it will give such a lot of feedback as to what is right and what is wrong.  Easier to do with an open stance. But be wary of going off track . Turn just the head not the shoulders.

S

Mike

Turning one's head to watch their backcast can be useful, but beware...

 

Most casters cast with their power leg back.  If this is you, and you turn to watch your backcast, your torso will rotate.  Lefty Kreh once opined "the line goes in the direction you speed up and stop your backcast."  So, as your trunk rotates so you can see your backcast, your rod and line get out of plane and make a curve cast.  On your delivery cast your line will lose all the energy, and will collapse.

 

If you want to watch your backcast, put your power leg forward,  This reduces the torso and shoulder rotation as you look behind you and helps keep your rod and line in plane.  If you are watching YouTube videos, check out Rick Hartman.  This guy regularly casts a 5 weight over 120', not just 120' every once in a while.  Check out his casting stance and the length of his casting stroke and the timing on his hauls and - his power leg is forward.  The latter is a technique/trick many experienced casters who choose to watch their backcast.  The power leg forward is also great for accuracy casting.  When you throw darts - power leg forward, right?  Basketball players - power leg forward.

 

To quote the SNL philosophers Hanz and Franz "Listen to me now and believe me later".  :-)

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Rich

 

Agree tracking one of the five principles is huge. Track well and many bad symptoms dissapear.

Most of us I believe when looking for distance will need to cast with an open stance to enable a longer casting stroke. Without even turning the head to watch the back cast there is always the problem of poor tracking. But it is up to us to learn not to do that. 
Closed stance is fantastic for accuracy and anatomically it makes it more difficult to go off track but we can still do it. Very strong Casters can cast a long way with a closed stance. I must admit I am not one.

One of the biggest problems is in the back cast. So even at the expense of a bad track or two if guys do not turn and watch their line all the way to the end they can for ever stay in the dark. To the end is key for I often see guys turn their head but go back straight again when the line is still travelling backwards.

What is frustrating is that most anyone can acquire a very good fly cast if they wish to.  Modern life for guys working for a living can make it difficult to find the time. I also get the feeling that the USA is not so well populated with qualified instructors as the UK is. Talking to some of the Guys on Sol the cost of casting lessons in the USA is way higher than the U.K. Going it alone is very difficult.

 

Mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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On Cape Cod the two fisherman I know who catch the most fish consistently from the beach are also the longest casters. A couple of years ago one of them emptied his fly line on the beach beside me.

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5 hours ago, richarde206 said:

Whoa, this is in so many ways wrong.  This implies that casting with an Eagle Claw yellow $30 rod with a $12 generic fly line a person will do as well as with a premium rod and line.  As Lefty Krey once opined, a good rod doesn't make a person a better caster, it makes casting better easier. 

 

Hi Richard, 

What physic principle prevents a $30 rod from casting as far as a $1000 rod?

I think you will have trouble finding one.

Likewise, by what physic principle does a $129 line go further than a well lubed $12 line?  

Again, you'll have trouble finding one.

 

The success of the cast is determined by the input of the caster, not the rod or line.  The better the caster the easier it is for him/her/or whatever to make the necessary adjustments to get a good cast.  

 

Consider this video

Lasse Karlsson casting a 12wt OBS (actually a 14wt line) on a 6.5' 3wt fiberglass rod.

Elsewhere I think I recall him saying this cast (or another like it) went around 32.5 meters while a cast with the same line on a 12wt rod went about 1.5 meters further.  

 

Edited by numbskull

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Agreed, even older generation slower action rods cast just as far as modern sticks...newer variants just work a little more efficiently. A slower rod just means a slightly longer stroke, also means your tracking has to be better. The principle never changed...a slow acceleration to a firm stop along with a well timed haul gets good results with any rod. Acceleration should never change regardless of stroke length. Line speed comes from the haul...short stroke, short haul, long stroke, longer haul...properly timed to match the rod tip stop of course.

Puppet easiest way to watch your back cast is to stand 90 degrees to target and cast directly across the plane of your torso. You can't apply any leg or torso but you can develop good stroke and well timed haul, and you can easily watch fly line completely unfurl and translate that into hand feel. 70/80 ft cast is very easy just with  the hands, no torso, once your timing in both hands is correct.

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5 hours ago, numbskull said:

 

Hi Richard, 

What physic principle prevents a $30 rod from casting as far as a $1000 rod?

I think you will have trouble finding one.

Likewise, by what physic principle does a $129 line go further than a well lubed $12 line?  

Again, you'll have trouble finding one.

 

The success of the cast is determined by the input of the caster, not the rod or line.  The better the caster the easier it is for him/her/or whatever to make the necessary adjustments to get a good cast.  

 

Consider this video

Lasse Karlsson casting a 12wt OBS (actually a 14wt line) on a 6.5' 3wt fiberglass rod.

Elsewhere I think I recall him saying this cast (or another like it) went around 32.5 meters while a cast with the same line on a 12wt rod went about 1.5 meters further.  

 

Oh my.  It's tantamount to saying "what do factors like bending strength or tensile strength have to in designing steel structures or bridges; what's the difference?  Steel is steel." Or "aluminum is aluminum", etc.  Fortunately engineers understand and take these types of technical features into consideration when designs bridges, dams, structures, planes, 

 

Tapers, resins, tensile strength of the carbon used in the blank, placement of the guides on blank, size and types of guides used - all are hugely important to casting for distance.  But, I believe we both agree, the critical factor in optimizing the performance of a car, a boat, a firearm, a bike, a fly rod, et al, is the operator.  Again, a good rod doesn't make a person a good caster, it just makes casting good easier.

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Rio Grand line taper shows why it is not meant for long distance.   It's a super heavy, bulk and weight forward, compound taper, and it's o.k. for turning over junk and double fly rigs, hopper/dropper, indicator fishing or weighted streamers.  For a pure distance line look elsewhere.  Because of the extreme compound taper, loops formed are not that stable in flight once a bunch of line is out  -- which is why I got rid of mine.  I have skagits and Wulff Ambush type lines and heads that already do "junk"

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7 mins ago, Killiefish said:

Rio Grand line taper shows why it is not meant for long distance.   It's a super heavy, bulk and weight forward, compound taper, and it's o.k. for turning over junk and double fly rigs, hopper/dropper, indicator fishing or weighted streamers.  For a pure distance line look elsewhere.  Because of the extreme compound taper, loops formed are not that stable in flight once a bunch of line is out  -- which is why I got rid of mine.  I have skagits and Wulff Ambush type lines and heads that already do "junk"

I dont feel so bad now Killie thanks. It was the line I had on my reel whilst on vacation with my family. Will give my Rio Gold 6 wt a twirl when I get home.

The Grande is pretty decent up to 65 feet.

 

Mike

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Richard just playing devils advocate here as one of my favourite toys are rods and blanks and building on them to optimise performance.

Most of the uptodate rod technology is wasted on the huge majority. But I am glad they do it all the same.

E Glass or S Glass built on fast taper mandrels in big enough OD to get the required stiffness will have more than enough performance to best 90 feet.

But they will be heavy of course and not much fun to use in the heavier line weights. Probably the least impactive in terms of distance are guides and their placement plus materials they are made from. Unless stupidly small or stupidly large guides are used they make very little difference. It is good practice to reach for world class and I am very fussy about the guide trains I use when building rods. If there was a great deal of care going on in this area it is hard to see as double leg high lift snake guides in hard chrome on top of stainless steel have been around on high end rods for a great many years. It is the custom boys who depart from the old hat excepted  wisdom and explore single leg ceramics on titanium frames.

Got to be straight with you I can’t agree with the Late Great Lefty Kreh that a great Rod makes casting easier unless that is the Caster is already competent.
Bad caster will be bad with any rod.

 

mike

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2 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

I dont feel so bad now Killie thanks. It was the line I had on my reel whilst on vacation with my family. Will give my Rio Gold 6 wt a twirl when I get home.

The Grande is pretty decent up to 65 feet.

 

Mike

Here's the two taper diagrams.  The Rio Gold is longer, smoother casting by design.  I bet it will get you to at least 90ft measured distance, or beyond.  The Rio Grand is like a downsized Rio OB (not short but stubby front) in design.

 

rio-gold-fly-line-profile_244_detail.jpg

rio-grand-profile_1698_detail.jpg

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Lastly, here's the Scientific Anglers GPX vs MPX comparo.  This is why I also like the older GPX for pure distance.  It's like the Rio Gold but 40ft head.  MPX is smoother than the Rio Grand and is a bit longer.mpx-gpx-comparison-2.jpg.f4f729a760490eef54c624e0f6f99421.jpg

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2 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

E Glass or S Glass built on fast taper mandrels in big enough OD to get the required stiffness will have more than enough performance to best 90 feet.

But they will be heavy of course and not much fun to use in the heavier line weights.

I have Iconoglass #10 and it is actually brilliant. The #12 not so much unfortunately. So at least with fast taper and unidirectional S-glass one can make great heavier line rods.

 

Regarding distance, conditions matter hugely. Heavy air cuts distance hugely. Dead air compared to slight tailing wind  - same thing. Cast into wind and much more distane is lost. And shooting into wind is in any serious amount cmpletely doomed (if you want the line straighten at least somehow). Wind resistant light fly cuts distance. So does a heavy, but low wind resistance fly as it is bouncing around too much when trying to get speed to the line and then becomes a serious hazard.

 

Btw, this guy can cast. Here is an example what can be done with a light line (5wt SA Mastery Expert Distance). About 152’ with just one back cast and no tomfoolery with video or tackle, the tape doesn’t lie. I think he has been the past few years the best in the trout (5wt) distance and is the reigning world champion in it. Bloody annoying that he is so good, I might even start training trout distance again to get to the same or near the same level at least.

 

 

Edited by sms

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Heh He is just bloody amazing. There is no way my old bones could get close to that.

Come on Sa———-I. I have seen you cast at the world comps. This has to motivate you.

Any idea just how much line he is picking up off the grass.

 

mike

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35 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Heh He is just bloody amazing. There is no way my old bones could get close to that.

Come on Sa———-I. I have seen you cast at the world comps. This has to motivate you.

Any idea just how much line he is picking up off the grass.

 

mike

Hello Mike

He might be getting the distance but his casting form ? 

Now if I showed up at one of your casting practices at Cape Cod and cast a fly rod like that what would you say ? 

I'm not about to go out and try his technique.  LOL

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