Mike Oliver

Whole Fly Line Challenge.

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3 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

It did until the pics :howdy:

 

What intrigues me is that we have had over 4000 views so why is it just a small group of us chewing it over.

 

What seems to be a simple thing to do make a overhead cast well is anything but.

 

I often wonder how many guys care or give Casting more than a second thought.

 

Mike

I would love to contribute to this discussion but my whopping 14 hrs of fishing on the water doesn’t qualify me to give any insight. This is a great thread for someone like myself who enjoys fishing. For me getting 60’+/- out into the water is great right now. Hitting 90’ on the water would be better and I’m working my way towards that. Yes I don’t really need 90’ but hitting 90’ would mean I’m doing everything pretty much right.  The one thing I learned about casting is there is no cheating when casting. If mess up a haul or casting stroke it shows in the end result, a failure to launch the line. The contributors to this thread are doing a great job, my hat is tipped to you guys. 

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45 mins ago, Mark L said:

I would love to contribute to this discussion but my whopping 14 hrs of fishing on the water doesn’t qualify me to give any insight. This is a great thread for someone like myself who enjoys fishing. For me getting 60’+/- out into the water is great right now. Hitting 90’ on the water would be better and I’m working my way towards that. Yes I don’t really need 90’ but hitting 90’ would mean I’m doing everything pretty much right.  The one thing I learned about casting is there is no cheating when casting. If mess up a haul or casting stroke it shows in the end result, a failure to launch the line. The contributors to this thread are doing a great job, my hat is tipped to you guys. 

Mark you have been a part of this thread. It is for everyone no matter where they are in the fly fishing journey.  My own interest increased a couple of years ago. What you are saying is true. We can’t hide a bad cast and we can’t hide a good one. I wish we could get to cast together. That is so much more effective than written words.

90 is a great target and the logic behind it.

 

Mike

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1 hour ago, Mike Oliver said:

Mark you have been a part of this thread. It is for everyone no matter where they are in the fly fishing journey.  My own interest increased a couple of years ago. What you are saying is true. We can’t hide a bad cast and we can’t hide a good one. I wish we could get to cast together. That is so much more effective than written words.

90 is a great target and the logic behind it.

 

Mike

Mike that would be pretty cool and I would forward to that. When you guys talk about distance casting and how they use yarn. I yet again lost another rear tail hook flag to the maple tree in my backyard. Thing looks like a Xmas tree has to be a half dozen in there so far. So I continued casting without a leader and fly. My rod loaded in a instant without the leader and fake fly.  I was amazed how much those two things hold back line speed and loading.  Felt like I was cheating when shooting line.  If I can find the happy medium between the two it would make my journey much nicer.  

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Practice with a 7-9 ft leader.  Nothing fancy.  Say 4 ft of 40, 2 ft of 20 and 2 ft of 12.  Tie a blood knot around a 1 inch section of bright yarn and have at it.  Once you develop distance and control with that you will have the necessary line speed to deal with heavier loads.

 

If you do not feel the rod ‘load’ it is always related to slack/sag in your backcast.  It is not the rod or the line’s fault.  The act of moving a rod against any inertial mass creates load on the rod.  If the rod is soft it bends a lot.  If the rod is stiff it bends a little……but the load on both rods is the same.  The ability to feel that load may be easier with a lighter and softer rod but it is there in both.

When there is slack in the line you do not move the entire line until the slack is removed.  Hence the mass you move initially is less than you expect and things feel ‘light’.   Before buying a heavier line check your backcast for slack.  If it is straight and under tension and things still feel subjectively wrong then another line is in order.  

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15 hours ago, numbskull said:

Aerodynamics certainly affect the loop shape but that is very different than concluding they cause lift.  If either loop shape or movement of line through the loop caused lift in a vertically aligned loop then that same force would make a horizontally aligned loop veer away in a curve and fall immediately under the no longer opposed force of gravity.  That doesn’t happen and it indicates a problem with the lift hypothesis of fly line flight.

 

Again, I do not fully understand the forces that maintain a flyline’s flight.  Nor, I suspect, do you. I’m not sure the people that study it even agree on what is happening.  Let’s just leave it at that.  

G

 

The aerodynamic principles of casting are 100% related to LIft and Drag. BOTH play significant roles and anyone who tells you they don’t really has little to no idea what they are talking about. Here’s why -

 

Lift is the force that directly opposes the weight of the fly line and the leader and holds the fly line in the air. Without lift, the loop would collapse and fall to the ground. (source: per me)

 

Lift is generated by the castable portion of the fly line and the leader as it moves through the air, just like lift is generated by every part of an airplane, but mostly so by the plane’s wings. 

 

Lift is a simple mechanical, aerodynamic force produced by the motion of the line through the air. Remembering back to physics class, lift is a force called a “vector quantity.” 

 

VQ’s have both a magnitude and direction associated with them. Lift acts through the “center of pressure” of the object that is moving - for this discussion, let’s imagine a fly line. Lift is directed perpendicular to the flow direction (at an angle of 90 degrees in relation to the direction of the fly line. 

There are several factors that affect how much lift a fly line, or any other object, create when moving. Things are happening in the air that you cannot see with the human eye, during a cast. 

 

Lift actually occurs then a moving flow of gas (in this case, air) is turned by a solid object (in this case, the fly line). The airflow is turned in one direction and the lift is generated in the opposite direction (according to Newton’s Third Law of Action and Reaction). 

 

Because air is a gas the molecules are free to move about, any solid surface, whether stationary or moving, can deflect the flow of air. Fly lines and Leaders, when moving, have both upper and lower surfaces that can turn the flow of air. All casts have lift related variables as a result of this.

 

In fly casting, the head and leader of a fly line actually fly because of Lift, so - you cannot cast without Lift - which again is a Mechanical Force! Lift is not generated by a gravitational field or an electromagnetic field - where one object can affect another object without becoming in physical contact with each other. 

 

For lift to be generated, the solid body must be in contact with the fluid (in this case, that would be air). If there were no air, lift would not be possible in fly casting. As swimmers we can move the water in similar fashion to the way a bird flies through the air. In terms of flight principles, air and water are both fluids. Without those fluids, anything swimming or flying would sink or fall. 

Without motion, there is no lift. Lift is generated by the difference in velocity between the solid object and the fluid (air, for our purposes). The fly line has to be started into motion and once it’s moving, the motion between the object and the air makes it possible for the fly line to be cast and stay in the air. 

It makes no difference at all whether the object moves through a static fluid, or whether the fluid moves past a static solid object. Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. 

 

The reason I mention all this is because a force called “Drag” acts in the direction opposed to the motion. Drag is an aerodynamic force that is also present in a fly-cast or any other type of flight for that matter. Drag opposes the fly lines motion through the air and it is also generated by the mass of the fly line head and the leader and even the fly. 

 

Like all mechanical forces, drag must be generated in order to occur. Drag is created in a fly cast by the interaction with and the contact of the line and leader with the air. 

 

For Drag to be generated,  the solid fly line and leader must be in contact with the air. Without air, we couldn’t cast a fly line and without air, a plane couldn’t fly unless it used some other force entirely (which is actually theoretically possible). 

 

The difference between the speed or “velocity” of the fly line and the air causes Drag to be generated. If the fly line isn’t moving, there can be no drag. In casting as with any object in “flight,” Drag is a force and it therefore becomes a “Vector Quantity” - one that has both a “Magnitude” and a “Direction.” Some Vector Quantities only have “Magnitude” and these are called Scalar Quantities. 

 

We live in a four-dimensional world as far as we know (there could be other dimensions but they may have little to do with fly-casting) which is governed by the passing of time and three space dimensions; up and down, left and right, and back and forth. 

 

We observe that there are some quantities and processes in our world that depend on the “direction” in which they occur, and there are some quantities that don’t at all. For example, the volume of an object doesn’t require direction. Using a saltwater fly box for an example, the three-dimensional space that the box occupies has nothing to do with direction. If we throw it on the beach in one direction and then throw it on the beach in another direction, the fly box still has the same mass. Since the mass of the fly box doesn’t change no matter where we move it, we call this a “Scalar Quantity.” 

 

However, if we move the box  to the east end of the beach, a mile away and put it on a rock, then we move it to the west end of the beach and lay it in the sand, the resulting location of the physical object changes very much obviously, so we call a quantity that depends on location a “Vector Quantity.” 

 

Obviously fly-casting involves Vector Quantities because we are moving the physical object, the line and the leader, towards the target in one direction, then we’re pulling it away from the target 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Any time you deal with Vectors, things get a little bit more complicated than Scalars. 

 

When we look at basic forces that are used to make a cast, we use Vector Quantities, such as the mass of the castable portion of the head of the fly line and the mass of the leader, the friction on the guides, the thrust that’s moving the line and other aerodynamic forces – all of them are vectors. 

 

Then we look at the resulting motion of the line in terms of how much air it displaces, its velocity and its changes in acceleration and it slows down and speeds up during a cast. These things are also all Vectors and they can be determined by the application of Newton’s laws for Vectors. 

 

Fly casting involves Magnitude and Direction and therefore, a number of Vectors and there are some quantities, like Speed that are looked at a bit differently. Speed is the scalar magnitude of a velocity vector. A Fly Line sizzling along at 110 mph towards a tailing Permit has a Speed Velocity of 110 mph in whatever direction, say the southwest, that it’s going. 

 

Mass and Weight can also get confusing when it pertains to flight and likewise, as related to fly-casting. Weight is a force which is a Vector because it has a magnitude and a direction. Though Weight and Mass are related to one another, they are absolutely different quantities. Mass is Scalar. 

 

While Newton's laws describe the resulting motion of a solid, there are special equations which describe the motion of fluids, gasses and liquids. In fly-casting, as is true with any physical system, the Mass, Momentum and Energy of the system must be conserved.

 

Mass and energy are scalar quantities, while Momentum is a Vector Quantity. All three quantities are factors involved in fly casting. We would use the Navier-Stokes equations to understand how the air (a fluid) reacts to the fly line & leader and the reason this is important in casting is because the NS equations are the flud equivalent of Newton’s laws of motion. 

 

This brings us back to Drag and why Drag is so important in Fly Casting. Drag acts in a direction that is opposite to the motion of the fly line (or any flying object). 

 

Lift acts perpendicular to the motion. There are many factors that affect the Magnitude of the Drag. Many factors also affect Lift but there are some factors that are unique to a Fly Line’s Drag. 

 

When a fly line moves through the air, the air resists the motion and pushes into the casting loop, which basically subjects the line to an aerodynamic force in a direction opposed to the motion. This is what Drag is and why it’s important to a cast. 

 

Lift has many factors that affect Drag. Some can be grouped into those associated with the Fly-Line and Leader, some have to do with the motion of the line through the air and then there’s the air itself which plays a role. 

Geometry has a big effect on how much drag is generated by the castable portion of the head of a fly line and this is a big reason leaders are super important in distance casting. Drag depends linearly on the size of the fly-line moving through the air. 

 

The cross-sectional shape of the fly line determines what is called the “form drag” which is created by the pressure variation around the casting loop and even the line behind this loop. The three dimensional shape of the fly-line and leader affects the amount of drag that the line & leader induce. Smooth, non porous lines produce less drag than textured lines (but they tend to float worse). This is actually called “Skin Friction” which is always included in the measured drag coefficient when fly line manufacturers design a fly line.

Since Drag is associated with the movement of the fly line through the air, this means drag depends on the “Velocity” of the air.

 

Like Lift, Drag varies with the square of the relative velocity between the line and the air. The inclination of the fly line to the flow affects the amount of drag the line & leader generate. As the casting loop moves in one direction or another, the loop is inclined to the flight direction at an angle and the “Angle of Attack” is created, which has a huge effect on the Drag generated by the line & leader. The magnitude of the drag generated by a fly line depends on the shape of the loop and how it moves. 

 

As casting loops unfurl, the drag rises quickly because of increased frontal area and increased boundary layer thickness. As the line moves, believe it or not, air molecules actually stick to it’s surface. This creates the boundary layer which changes the shape of the loop.

 

The flow reacts to the advancing loop. When casting loops are compact and properly formed, drag is nearly constant. Once the loop begins to stall, it can become highly unsteady and the value of drag becomes much greater. A properly designed leader works in conjunction with the taper of the front taper of the fly line and this helps to to keep the loop from stalling for as long as possible. 

 

Drag depends directly on the mass of flow going past the moving fly line and it also depends on the air’s viscosity and compressibility. With all things that fly, the information gathered regarding the factors that affect drag can be built into a “Drag Equation” that can predict how much drag force is generated by a casting-loop, or any other fly object, at a given speed through the air. 

 

We can think of drag as aerodynamic friction and one of the sources of drag is skin friction between the molecules of air and the surface of the fly line. Because the skin friction is an interaction between a solid - the fly line and a gas, the air, the magnitude of the skin friction depends on properties of both the line and the air. 

 

The smoother the line’s surface, the less friction there is. “Slickness” is great for shooting running line but it helps a fly line knife through the air as well, creating less drag. Meanwhile, the air’s magnitude depends on its viscosity and the relative magnitude of the viscous forces to the motion of the flow. This is expressed by a Reynolds number. Along the line’s surface boundary layer of low energy flow is generated so the magnitude of the skin friction depends on conditions in the boundary layer. 

 

We can also think of drag as aerodynamic resistance to the motion of the fly line and leader through the air. This source of drag depends upon the shape of the casting loop and the line itself and is called “Form Drag.”  As air flows around the fly line, the local velocity and pressure are changed. 

 

Since pressure is a measure of the momentum of the gas molecules and a change in momentum produces a force, varying pressure distribution will produce force on the line. The magnitude of this force depends on the combined effect of the local pressure times the surface area of the entire fly line and leader.

 

The component of the aerodynamic force that is opposed to the motion is the drag; the component perpendicular to the motion is the lift. Both the lift and drag force act through the center of pressure of the fly line. 

There is an additional drag component caused by the generation of lift, which is called “Induced Drag.” This is also known as “Drag Due to LIft.” Induced drag occurs because the distribution of lift is not uniform on a fly line and leader. 

 

The magnitude of induced drag depends on the amount of lift being generated by the line and leader and on the distribution of lift across the span. Properly formed loops have a minimum amount of induced drag.

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41 mins ago, numbskull said:

Practice with a 7-9 ft leader.  Nothing fancy.  Say 4 ft of 40, 2 ft of 20 and 2 ft of 12.  Tie a blood knot around a 1 inch section of bright yarn and have at it.  Once you develop distance and control with that you will have the necessary line speed to deal with heavier loads.

 

If you do not feel the rod ‘load’ it is always related to slack/sag in your backcast.  It is not the rod or the line’s fault.  The act of moving a rod against any inertial mass creates load on the rod.  If the rod is soft it bends a lot.  If the rod is stiff it bends a little……but the load on both rods is the same.  The ability to feel that load may be easier with a lighter and softer rod but it is there in both.

When there is slack in the line you do not move the entire line until the slack is removed.  Hence the mass you move initially is less than you expect and things feel ‘light’.   Before buying a heavier line check your backcast for slack.  If it is straight and under tension and things still feel subjectively wrong then another line is in order.  

After you nailed my issue on my back cast I paid much more attention to it. Watched it in the yard a bunch of times and took the feeling out to the beach last nite. Line pick up off the water and my back stroke were much better. Got my false cast down to three before my cast, much better then previous trips out. I have to learn to not over power my cast which kills my loops.  Things worked out better longer casts, more time in the water and bam got my second schoolie of the year.  Missed a few more but that’s fishing. I’m finding it hard to grab my VS and lami, rather grab a fly rod. Anyone can catch one on a sp I enjoy the challenge, 3 hours in the dark flew by. Just picked up a small medalist  with two spools on the cheap for snappers for late summer. 

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, numbskull said:

God, I always hated these “guess what the teacher is thinking” questions. 
 

Which image are you quizzing us on, Cary?  The bottom image does not fit with the top images (note his line hand and more closed stance in the top images). And why are you assuming he wants or needs line speed?   Certainly in the top images he doesn’t.  He’s not even planning to haul.  Those images, I assume, are meant to show the rod lift prior to beginning a backcast. 
 

The bottom image, with a SW rod and open stance, could imply the intention to pick it up and fire it.  If so, he’d do better to start with his line hand closer to the stripper guide in order to pull slack out of the system as he starts the lift prior to the backcast.  But he still needs to lift the rod as in the top images before starting back in order to avoid too large a backcast arc, unless he is making a very long pickup (with lots of water disturbance) and intends to put it right back down where it came from.   Getting his foot off the line will also help.  And he should be wearing eye protection.  
Did I miss anything else?

G

 

 

The bottom image was the image I was referring to. In fly fishing, line speed needs vary. In saltwater fly fishing and in streamer fishing, line speed is important to achieve distance. 

 

Your observation regarding the bottom image is very astute. Excellent observations. Based on his stance, we certainly can guess that the caster is preparing to pick the line up. I think you nailed it and proved my point well. It would be good if once the head was in the air, the casters feet were moved at a 45' angle to the target also, instead of pointing directly at it (unless perhaps he's only casting to a rising fish 15' in front of him). 

 

However, for picking up a long amount of line, facing the target with the feet can help with an intitial pull and this helps build line speed fast. 

 

The more line we plan on carrying in the air, the more these little things matter - and the more a proper leader matters. 

 

Many would look at the image and try to replicate it. But that's not the best posture to be in when picking up line. If the goal is to get a line in the air and deliver it, we want the cast to begin with maximum energy. 

 

Picking the fly up once the slack is out of the line, with the hand close to the first shooting guide, allows us to haul 12" more on the very first cast. This eliminates the need for as many back-casts as the caster did what the picutre suggest (probably saves one back-cast). 

 

The faster you can get a head in the air, the quicker you can cast it. When you see a cruising fish or breaking fish, the goal is to get the fly in position. Futzing around with back casts delays this.

6269e8bc81327_Screenshot2022-04-279_06_53PM.png.cec08b4244d479fc66359c6d8a9910d3.png

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by CaryGreene

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, HL said:

Biggest is his rod arm should be extended

Herb

Nope. This would put the first shooting guide even further away. Rather than reach more forward with the rod hand on the pickup and grab the line at the reel, bring the rod closer and reach with the line hand to the first guide. This starts your cast with a ton more energy and reduces the need to back cast. 

Edited by CaryGreene

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13 hours ago, DeepBlue85 said:

 

 

I'd be starting with my haul hand at least above the cork so the haul hand has more distance to travel, moving more line, generating more line speed into the back cast and more easily loading the rod with one back cast for a quick shot at a moving target.  That one flaw on the pick up can effect the potential of the presentation cast. 

 

Furthermore, Loop control using the haul hand helps remove tailing loops effectively on the back cast for me.  I grab the line from just under the stripping guide and haul into a back cast,  raising the haul hand with slow steady pace unfurling the line uniformly and correcting any loop problems if the rod is just slightly off plane or the stroke is too abrupt.  The pace of the haul hand creates a controlled stop vs a hard stop and maintains tension throughout the stroke which translates to rod load and line speed, and, distance. 

Excellent observations and so well said it needs to be in a distance casting book. 

 

"'Id be starting with my haul hand at least above the cork so the haul hand has more distance to travel, moving more line, generating more line speed into the back cast and more easily loading the rod with one back cast for a quick shot at a moving target."

 

And yet we've got thousands of pictures and images all over the internet teaching people to cast wrong. It's amazing. Huge pet peeve of mine. 

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4 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Mark you have been a part of this thread. It is for everyone no matter where they are in the fly fishing journey.  My own interest increased a couple of years ago. What you are saying is true. We can’t hide a bad cast and we can’t hide a good one. I wish we could get to cast together. That is so much more effective than written words.

90 is a great target and the logic behind it.

 

Mike

Nicely said Mikey!

"We ought never to do wrong when people are looking!" 

     ~Mark Twain

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, numbskull said:

If you do not feel the rod ‘load’ it is always related to slack/sag in your backcast.  It is not the rod or the line’s fault.  The act of moving a rod against any inertial mass creates load on the rod.  If the rod is soft it bends a lot.  If the rod is stiff it bends a little……but the load on both rods is the same.

 

 

Rhetorically, would it be fair then to say a stiff rod / modern action rod,  in pricipal has more stored energy than a soft rod? Surely that's true, so could adjustments unlock that stored energy of a stiffer rod and if so, should this alone be responsible for distance?

 

I guess what I meen is, powerful modern rods have an ability to leverage more line with less effort when properly loaded, does this make achieving distance easier or harder in your opinion?

Edited by DeepBlue85

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14 mins ago, CaryGreene said:

What's the difference between a beginner, an intermediate and an expert fly fisherman? 

Didn’t you already explain that?

JC

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3 mins ago, JonC said:

Didn’t you already explain that?

JC

I may have! I personally could have never answered this question, but I do know someone who summed it up pretty hillariously. 

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Posted (edited)

9 mins ago, DeepBlue85 said:

 

 

Rhetorically, would it be fair then to say a stiff rod / modern action rod,  in pricipal has more stored energy than a soft rod? Surely that's true, so could adjustments unlock that stored energy of a stiffer rod and if so, should this alone be responsible for distance?

 

I guess what I meen is, powerful modern rods have an ability to leverage more line with less effort when properly loaded, does this make achieving distance easier or harder in your opinion?

If you're casting a line with a 30' head for example, lets say it weighs 250 grains. You cast it with absolutely ANY rod you wish. The load is the same. It's 250 grains. 

Edited by CaryGreene

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