Weight-Balanced Flies

[South Shore Fly]

For the past couple seasons, I've been messing with Fish Skulls for stripers and other NE salt species. I've been tying them with bucktail, zonker strips, synthetic fibers (EP, SF, etc.). After watching the following video of Mark Sedotti, it occurred to me that these streamers fished with fish skulls might benefit from weight balancing in two ways: 1) getting the fly to sink faster and uniformly when wanting to fish deeper and 2) an improved cast particularly when a fly is tied with mass of material, which is the primary purpose of the Sedotti Slammer. Here's the video where Mark adds keels with lead wire:

 

What I'd like to do with the fish skulls is to weight them to strip close to the bottom by flipping the skull to ride hook up to encourage a faster sink rate, avoid snags, and maybe a achieve more balanced cast by adding some weight opposite the hook side of the shank. While Mark is tying his slammer to ride hook down, I'm thinking you could control whether it's hook up or hook down depending on where the keel is tied.

 

Anybody try this with fish skulls or other weights? The whole idea of using weight on the fly for improved casting balance intrigues me, but it also may result in better depth control and stripping action while I try to get down to where the fish are. I'm experimenting now with using a combination of weighted wires along the shank that weigh slightly less than the fish skull at the eye of the hook, as I'd like to be able to get a rising and sinking motion while stripping. What are your thoughts?

Edited March 24, 2022 by South Shore Fly

[Suave]

Mark Sedotti is a frequent contributor to SOL (his moniker is No Bull S) and of course he has posted on the weighing of big and heavily dressed flies to improve their castability. Even if what he wrote on this topic does not precisely answer your question, it is related and makes for informative reading. For example see the "Big & Heavy Flies for the Salt..." thread on the Fly Fishing Forum started by frazerp on November 17, 2020. And a search on No Bull S activity on SOL may bring you to other posts of interest.

[South Shore Fly]

23 mins ago, Suave said:

Mark Sedotti is a frequent contributor to SOL (his moniker is No Bull S) and of course he has posted on the weighing of big and heavily dressed flies to improve their castability. Even if what he wrote on this topic does not precisely answer your question, it is related and makes for informative reading. For example see the "Big & Heavy Flies for the Salt..." thread on the Fly Fishing Forum started by frazerp on November 17, 2020. And a search on No Bull S activity on SOL may bring you to other posts of interest.

Thanks, Suave. I've read Mark's posts here. I'm basically converting his slammer concept of a big, heavy fly to a smaller footprint. The fish skull baitfish patterns I'm tying are around 3-5 inches max. On top of that, after using the fish skulls, I felt they could be improved in the two areas mentioned. I fish them both hook up (mostly) or down, and I figured adding some weight along the shank might help casting and action. Just posting to learn if others are using fish skulls on streamers and how they dress them to get the best results.

[TopStriperAngler]

What about trying a bendback putting a crimp in the front 1/4" of a hook to make a platform for your materials. For testing you could start off with no weight on the shank maybe just tie a bit of chenille from the bend up to the crimp. Then at the water bring your wire and attach that incrementally to see how it goes. It would be better to do it that way at least for your first prototype.  

 

The chenill might prevent the wire from sliding and allow u try different positions for the weight.

 

I ain't never tried tying a hook point up fly that wasn't either dumbell eyes or a bendback. Will be interesting to hear how it goes. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by TopStriperAngler

[South Shore Fly]

1 hour ago, TopStriperAngler said:

What about trying a bendback putting a crimp in the front 1/4" of a hook to make a platform for your materials. For testing you could start off with no weight on the shank maybe just tie a bit of chenille from the bend up to the crimp. Then at the water bring your wire and attach that incrementally to see how it goes. It would be better to do it that way at least for your first prototype.  

 

The chenill might prevent the wire from sliding and allow u try different positions for the weight.

 

I ain't never tried tying a hook point up fly that wasn't either dumbell eyes or a bendback. Will be interesting to hear how it goes. 

Good suggestions. I've got a scale to weigh the fish skull and then will adjust the wire to be less than the fish skull to encourage an up and down action. It's also a good idea to test incrementally, and recording the initial weights will allow me to adjust added weight depending and casting results and action in the water. The fish skull has a heavier side at the bottom of the mouth that accepts the hook eye. If I flip it, it will enable hook point up fishing. It's the first thing I've used other than dumbbell eyes or a wire keel on the top of the shank to keep the hook up. It works, and Sedotti's video gave me the idea to see if adding more weight results in an improvement. I'm considering using a couple types of material as well, as a zonker strip will add additional weight once it soaks up water. The synthetic fibers like EP or squimpish may be a better test to eliminate the water weight variable. Thanks for the ideas.

Edited March 25, 2022 by South Shore Fly

[TopStriperAngler]

Oh I see you going for up down a jigging type action. I think the EP would be good cuz polypropylene floats. And tie in a good bunch in the tail I think too. 

 

Might need to keep all the weight right up by the eye unlike the slammer video shows. 

 

I wonder if you were going to try two designs try the EP in the tail tied very full and then go sparse on the wing where tied in near the eye. Just to make the fly more nose heavy. 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by TopStriperAngler

[FlatWing]

Bunker fly weighted with .020 lead wire wrapped 2 layers 1cm long, covered with flat waxed nylon thread and keeled 3/2/1 strips of 1cm long wire.  Material is SF blend - tail (installed before wire) is shrimp grey over white, stiffened at shank with water proof liquid CA glue. Head is large EZ body cone covered in very sparse 40/60 hi-Tie of SF - 4x white for collar, 1x yellow for cheeks, 4x Shrimp Grey for wing.  Topping is peacock Angel Hair.more level

 

This particular tie is set up to sink nose first on the pause, like a jiggy.  My alternate tie is to center the weight/keel on the shank (hook is Mustad 3407-DT) and to use Softtec (vice Tuff Fly UV) to coat the nose/eyes - this tie will sink level.

Edited April 10, 2022 by FlatWing

[JRT]

Nice looking fly.

I'm trying to find a way of making a fly stop and not sink on the pause. I lot of bait simply hangs in the water column. It would love to be able to imitate this. 

The closest I get is tying using natural materials (bucktail/nayat) with a bit of foam at the head. But its really hard to get the balance right.

[TopStriperAngler]

5 hours ago, JRT said:

Nice looking fly.

I'm trying to find a way of making a fly stop and not sink on the pause. I lot of bait simply hangs in the water column. It would love to be able to imitate this. 

The closest I get is tying using natural materials (bucktail/nayat) with a bit of foam at the head. But its really hard to get the balance right.

 

I been trying that too. What I been doing for smaller 2-6" flies is just making a sort of slider shaped crease fly with solid core to the creased foam. Then trimming things down on the water so it sinks. Just have to make sure to trim it so it sinks level. I foudn you don't need too much foam near the head of fly as the heavier end of deal is the bend. 

 

 

[JRT]

I've come to the conclusion that achieving neutral buoyancy is virtually impossible. The closest I have come to it is fishing a fast sink line and a buoyant fly. 

But no doubt some smart person will come up with a way at some stage.

 

[TopStriperAngler]

45 mins ago, JRT said:

I've come to the conclusion that achieving neutral buoyancy is virtually impossible. The closest I have come to it is fishing a fast sink line and a buoyant fly. 

But no doubt some smart person will come up with a way at some stage.

 

 

I guess if you really want to get to neutral you'd have to use materials that  retain neither air nor water. This craft foam from the hobby store apparently does soak up water but you can seal it--they say--by running a heat gun over it to seal pores. I actually should have mentioned I have been doing this step for the very slow sinking ones I been trying at. You just run the heat gun over the sheet before cutting it. Of course all the cut edges will have open pores. 

 

I guess need to do some more experimenting. 

 

 

[FlatWing]

18 hours ago, JRT said:

Nice looking fly.

I'm trying to find a way of making a fly stop and not sink on the pause. I lot of bait simply hangs in the water column. It would love to be able to imitate this. 

The closest I get is tying using natural materials (bucktail/nayat) with a bit of foam at the head. But its really hard to get the balance right.

Suggest you look at my posts in the following thread, starting with post #116 - I show several Flatwing patterns that achieve your desired result, in some cases with a spun deer head.

 

Coronavirus Tying Projects - Fly Fishing - SurfTalk (stripersonline.com)

[South Shore Fly]

On 4/10/2022 at 8:40 AM, JRT said:

I'm trying to find a way of making a fly stop and not sink on the pause. I lot of bait simply hangs in the water column. It would love to be able to imitate this. 

The closest I get is tying using natural materials (bucktail/nayat) with a bit of foam at the head. But its really hard to get the balance right.

That's what I'm looking to do as well with the hook point riding up. It does require getting the correct balance. As mentioned, I'm experimenting with Fish Skulls at the hook eye with some straight lengths of lead wire tied to the shank behind as a keel to get a slower, uniform, level sink rather than a jig up-and-down motion from the eye of the hook, nose of the fly. The added benefit is that if the fly is truly weight balanced with added weight neutralizing material mass, it could benefit casting as well. I'd like to reach the fish feeding closer to the bottom without getting hung up on the rocks and weeds that serve as hiding places for bait. I'm also messing with lighter materials that can still provide some visual bulk using EP Fibers. They don't soak up water resulting in no additional weight.

Edited April 12, 2022 by South Shore Fly

[Suave]

On 2022-04-10 at 8:40 AM, JRT said:

 

I'm trying to find a way of making a fly stop and not sink on the pause. I lot of bait simply hangs in the water column. It would love to be able to imitate this. 

 

If I presume correctly, you're trying to achieve that when using a sinking line. If that is the case, the pause has to be very short as the weight of the line rapidly makes the fly sink, and probably at an an angle as well. So imitating a bait hanging in the water column appears to me well-nigh impossible.

[puppet]

I think in general it is good to have a sink tank for lures and flies. It is a real eye opener.

The sink rate is totally different with freshwater and with something as subtle as flies we tie, I really feel it is important to know what we are designing.

 

CSA club pres. posted this once in a thread we had on ocean salinity.

 

Quote

 

Originally posted by george baldwin

5 gallons is a little under 23 liters. 25 ppt x 23 liters= 415g salt in your tank, then fill to 5 gallons with water

 

 

This comes to be an ounce less than a pound of salt in 5 gallons of water I put in a clear tub, but one could use a fish tank. 

 

I also feel it is a good idea to attach some leader you use when you sink the fly.  The leader you use has resistance and buoyancy of its own.

 

I posted this up as it relates.  I really feel level posture is important.  If we are just swinging flies these details don't matter as much, but if you are dead drifting or pausing retrieves I feel it matters a lot.