yogiiiboy

Upperman Bucktail

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4 mins ago, yogiiiboy said:

I’m assuming demand might have not been there.  People just don’t understand, I guess, just how potent the Upperman (flat bean) style bucktail really is.  I believe an underwater video would really motivate those to use this style a lot more……especially, this time of the year.  Fluke are all over this thing if used properly, which is not a hard technique!!

I agree!

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On 7/8/2022 at 11:10 AM, Dan Tinman said:

If you want them in bare lead to paint and dress yourself put in a request in the Commercial B/S/t section under "requests".  I guarantee results.  Here's a link.

https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/forum/59-cbst-requests-what-are-you-looking-for/

 

 Dan, to my eye the banana jig looks about the same as the upperman. am i missing something ?

 

  note, i have not read the entire thread. if this has been addressed my apologies

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22 mins ago, mark d said:

 

 Dan, to my eye the banana jig looks about the same as the upperman. am i missing something ?

 

  note, i have not read the entire thread. if this has been addressed my apologies

They are not even remotely similar.  The banana head is a true forward balanced head that has a bulge making it bottom weighted.  If you stop the retrieve it will sit upright on the bottom because of that feature.  The Upperman can be either forward or center weighted and has a narrow coin shape.  If you look at it head on it has a narrow crossection which makes it cut thru current to get down in a hurry.  Stop the retrieve and let it settle to the bottom and it will fall over on it's side.

Banana head.

thumbnail_asp.jpeg.a8abfbabb6f191036a8a3e34a99f0944.jpeg

 

Upperman style

thumbnail-1_asp.jpeg.75cf41243aed4b9fa3026f8782e8afe4.jpeg

 

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THE LORE OF THE LURE: UPPERMAN BUCKTAIL JIG

 

 this photo and the above title came from an article i found with google. the upperman in their article looks way different then your photo. i know you know your stuff, so did they get it wrong ? 

upperman.jpg

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 i just went back and looked at the first page of this thread again and all the upperman photos look like yours. they must have got it wrong in the article i read. hard to believe the media would be wrong

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40 mins ago, mark d said:

 

 i just went back and looked at the first page of this thread again and all the upperman photos look like yours. they must have got it wrong in the article i read. hard to believe the media would be wrong

They got that wrong along time ago mark!

but then again, the media has been wrong about a lot the last few years  :witty:

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4 hours ago, Dan Tinman said:

They are not even remotely similar.  The banana head is a true forward balanced head that has a bulge making it bottom weighted.  If you stop the retrieve it will sit upright on the bottom because of that feature.  The Upperman can be either forward or center weighted and has a narrow coin shape.  If you look at it head on it has a narrow crossection which makes it cut thru current to get down in a hurry.  Stop the retrieve and let it settle to the bottom and it will fall over on it's side.

Banana head.

thumbnail_asp.jpeg.a8abfbabb6f191036a8a3e34a99f0944.jpeg

 

Upperman style

thumbnail-1_asp.jpeg.75cf41243aed4b9fa3026f8782e8afe4.jpeg

 

Tinman do you have the Upperman style that you posted and in what weights 

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13 mins ago, LB said:

Tinman do you have the Upperman style that you posted and in what weights 

Yes I do.  I only have them posted in bare lead but I can also supply them painted (powder coat) or fully dressed with deer hair.

Here's a picture in bare lead.  It shows up to 3 oz but a 4 oz is also available.fullsizeoutput_126a_grande.jpg.4dfff38c4c6ddc0470a704a5bcd81d65.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, mark d said:

 

 dan, what bucktail do you believe has the most inherent action/movement ? thanks

That's a tough question to answer. Most guys, myself included, will have different answers and they all will be valid.  A lot depends on personal experience.

First, most bucktails have no "built in" action as such.  The action is put in by the guy fishing it.  A few do behave in certain ways in the water that will attract fish and maybe even entice them to hit.  Three come to mind right now, one of which is a jig instead of a bucktail.  Proper terminology matters here.

First is the "Smilin' Bill".  The open mouth feature imparts a small amount of action or vibrations in the water.  I have very little personal experience fishing this style so I can't really say how much that is but it has to have an effect.  These are a very popular and successful lure.

Next is the "Upperman" or Lima Bean shape.  As was discussed earlier in this thread they have a zig zag type of motion in the water which has to attract fish.  Again I little personal experience with these so I can't really say how much that action is or how it's achieved.

The third is one I do have a lot of experience with.  The "Wobble Jig" in the 3 smaller sizes.  Because most of my experience is light tackle on sand beaches with the occasional jetty these are my "go to" jig, for Fluke especially, is the wobble jig.  This does have "inherent" action that works.  Don't let the "Fluke especially" phrase fool you.  These things will take almost anything that will hit a moving lure, Stripers included.  

A couple more thoughts on bucktails and jigs and "action".  

If you watch small bait fish swim around you'll see that all the body motion is is the back half.  The tail wiggles and the head end doesn't.  The front fins are going too but that's minor compared to the tail.  Bucktails and jigs can't replicate that tail motion without additional help.  Here's where the huge variety of soft plastic tails and/or pork rind trailers comes in.  It's my belief (I'm sure some guys will disagree) that a jig or bucktail without a trailer added is much less effective.  The shape and style is up to the user.  Swirl tail or paddle tail is a matter of opinion, experience and local situation but you have to add something.

Another thing that's important to me is the "balance" of the head.  Center balance is fine for a vertical presentation like from a boat but not so good from a beach or other low line angle location.   In my mind forward balance is critical in those situations.  It creates a more level presentation as compared to the nose down angle of a center balanced head.  Until recently most commercial mold makers didn't pay much attention to that fact.  I've gone thru considerable effort and expense over the years to make jig heads the way I feel they should be made for us surf guys, forward balanced.  I know that Smilin' Bills and most bullet head bucktails are not forward balanced and they're very successful but I think they could be better.  Please note I said "most" bullet heads.  There is at least one line of them that are true forward balanced.

OK.  I got carried away with this.  Sorry about that.  Couldn't pass up the opportunity to toot my horn.  I hope I have answered mark d's question well enough.  If not, let me know and hopefully others will add their experience to the discourse.

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Dan That was great, way back mid 50s into the 80s your surf bag wasint fill with what we carry now a couple of plugs wood real tins with a jar of pork rind a roll open pouch with Uppermans and popeyed type bucktails or Smiling Bills you were good to go.

 

l wish l had the mold for this bucktail, l made a plaster or was it Bondo mold, there was two sizes the mold l made was for 1oz these were fish getter.

Bucktail would hang like this on you line.

20220806_095334.jpg.2bbd3c9ba288cf9ba43a4eb320c0eaaf.jpg20210303_082855.jpg.0da1f3439ffcf7802d558481bc051ba4.jpg20210303_082547.jpg.5be84506ccd7142cc23b638d5c5bc551.jpg

 

20210303_083222.jpg

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20 mins ago, LB said:

Dan That was great, way back mid 50s into the 80s your surf bag wasint fill with what we carry now a couple of plugs wood real tins with a jar of pork rind a roll open pouch with Uppermans and popeyed type bucktails or Smiling Bills you were good to go.

 

l wish l had the mold for this bucktail, l made a plaster or was it Bondo mold, there was two sizes the mold l made was for 1oz these were fish getter.

Bucktail would hang like this on you line.

20220806_095334.jpg.2bbd3c9ba288cf9ba43a4eb320c0eaaf.jpg20210303_082855.jpg.0da1f3439ffcf7802d558481bc051ba4.jpg20210303_082547.jpg.5be84506ccd7142cc23b638d5c5bc551.jpg

 

20210303_083222.jpg

Interesting shape.  Never saw one like that before.  Does it have a name or maybe who made them back when?

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Dan, thanks for your thorough answer. I paid attention

 

Lb, thanks for your thourogh response as well

 

Yogiboy, thanks for your thread

 

Thanks to all you guys for sharing your knowledge. Thats what makes this site so good

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3 hours ago, Dan Tinman said:

Interesting shape.  Never saw one like that before.  Does it have a name or maybe who made them back when?

No name or who made the molds, the mold belonged to two brothers Nat and Gus Piazza from Bensenhusrts or Bay 50th in Brooklyn NY, l fished with Gus on his boat 25ft Jersey skiff in the early 60s we would cast these bucktails with a stip of port rine along the jetties in Coney Island Bklyn NY and would also run to the Highlands in NJ and fish the bucktails along the sea wall.

One day we will meet and l will show you the bucktail and small tin molds that l made in the 90s.

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54 mins ago, LB said:

 

 

No name or who made the molds, the mold belonged to two brothers Nat and Gus Piazza from Bensenhusrts or Bay 50th in Brooklyn NY, l fished with Gus on his boat 25ft Jersey skiff in the early 60s we would cast these bucktails with a stip of port rine along the jetties in Coney Island Bklyn NY and would also run to the Highlands in NJ and fish the bucktails along the sea wall.

One day we will meet and l will show you the bucktail and small tin molds that l made in the 90s.

That technique of flipping bucktails or doodle bugs to jetty ends is a lost art.  Guys would launch 12 or 14 foot boats thru the surf and go jetty hopping.  They caught a lot of fish that way.  Of course there was a lot more fish around then.

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