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Striped Bass are Overfished

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OnlyChunk

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14 mins ago, MakoMike said:

So, just to play devil’s advocate, let’s say the ASMFC is disbanded, then who manages the fisheries? Is it then just all out chaos?

As I understand from reading some of the information Drew C provided ( much appreciated); the ASMFC is just a advisory body, they do not implement regulations/laws. NOAA has that oversight, and is bound to take the advise of ASMFC.  So maybe the disbanding happens, and things remain as they are until a new advisory body/charter forms AND appropriate political positions are cycled.  I don't know... but if something is broken why bother trying to keep it going rather than work on building a new plan?

Edited by chisler
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29 mins ago, chisler said:

As I understand from reading some of the information Drew C provided ( much appreciated); the ASMFC is just a advisory body, they do not implement regulations/laws. NOAA has that oversight, and is bound to take the advise of ASMFC.  So maybe the disbanding happens, and things remain as they are until a new advisory body/charter forms AND appropriate political positions are cycled.  I don't know... but if something is broken why bother trying to keep it going rather than work on building a new plan?

Your understanding is wrong. ASMFC has the ability to force states to adopt the regulations they approve. NOAA only manages fisheries in federal waters and with respect to striped bass, they have prohibited striped bass fishing in federal waters. The only alternative is to somehow reform the ASMFC.

====Mako Mike====
Makomania Sportfishing
Pt. Judith, RI
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1 hour ago, MakoMike said:

Your understanding is wrong. ASMFC has the ability to force states to adopt the regulations they approve. NOAA only manages fisheries in federal waters and with respect to striped bass, they have prohibited striped bass fishing in federal waters. The only alternative is to somehow reform the ASMFC.

It's a curve to take in the information.   I had seen mention on the web site with respect to ASMFC and NOAA : the former is an advisory party.

 

Upon looking at doc. From ASMFC "Compact & Rules and Regulations" 2016, there is consistent language of "shall" . However, all those directions refer to recommendations, not directives or directions.  

 

 

Rephrasing that jibberish:. I suppose that it is possible that after 80 years of existence the ASMFC recommendations, be unofficially interpreted as directives.  Is that the case?

 

Edited by chisler
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15 mins ago, chisler said:

It's a curve to take in the information.   I had seen mention on the web site with respect to ASMFC and NOAA : the former is an advisory party.

 

Upon looking at doc. From ASMFC "Compact & Rules and Regulations" 2016, there is consistent language of "shall" . However, all those directions refer to recommendations, not directives or directions.  

 

 

Rephrasing that jibberish:. I suppose that it is possible that after 80 years of existence the ASMFC recommendations, be unofficially interpreted as directives.  Is that the case?

 

Not at all. Federal fishery managers have no management authority with state waters. Each state was independent before the ASMFC was formed by way of a compact approved by the US Congress. That compact was reinforced by the US Congress in several acts including the striped bass management act. So, in short, the feds rule in federal waters and the ASMFC rules in state waters.

====Mako Mike====
Makomania Sportfishing
Pt. Judith, RI
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2 hours ago, chisler said:

It's a curve to take in the information.   I had seen mention on the web site with respect to ASMFC and NOAA : the former is an advisory party.

 

Upon looking at doc. From ASMFC "Compact & Rules and Regulations" 2016, there is consistent language of "shall" . However, all those directions refer to recommendations, not directives or directions.  

 

 

Rephrasing that jibberish:. I suppose that it is possible that after 80 years of existence the ASMFC recommendations, be unofficially interpreted as directives.  Is that the case?

 


NOAA and ASMFC have a reciprocal advisory relationship with each other (and by acts of congress ASMFC has federal power behind it in some cases) but the main voting power for regulations for what goes on within 3 miles lies with the representatives from the states.

Edited by JerseyJeb
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5 hours ago, jk20a3 said:

Game fish staus and end all the NE semantics. Enough with the old salt "I'm just tryina feed ma family" crap. Fish for sport, getting outdoors, etc. 

Game fish status. End of story. Fish is above 40”, keep it in the water like tarpon. Plenty of other better tasting fish to eat.

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11 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Your understanding is wrong. ASMFC has the ability to force states to adopt the regulations they approve. NOAA only manages fisheries in federal waters and with respect to striped bass, they have prohibited striped bass fishing in federal waters. The only alternative is to somehow reform the ASMFC.

How did that work with NJ & Fluke?

 

The answer - Not so well

 

PS - chisler is right about politicians, I forgot about the NJ Fluke/asmfc issue. Thats about as a perfect example of politicians getting involved as there is.

Edited by Drew C.

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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12 hours ago, MakoMike said:

So, just to play devil’s advocate, let’s say the ASMFC is disbanded, then who manages the fisheries? Is it then just all out chaos?

The asmfc certainly isn't managing things now. I think a group couldn't do a worse job even if they intentionally tried to.

 

 

ASMFC - Destroying public resources and fisheries one stock at a time since 1942.

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1 hour ago, Drew C. said:

How did that work with NJ & Fluke?

 

The answer - Not so well

 

PS - chisler is right about politicians, I forgot about the NJ Fluke/asmfc issue. Thats about as a perfect example of politicians getting involved as there is.

There are always exceptions to the general rule.

====Mako Mike====
Makomania Sportfishing
Pt. Judith, RI
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23 hours ago, chisler said:

What capacity does the ASMFC have in setting regulations? I find it extremely difficult to adhere to the thought that " there are no politicians involved".  Quite frankly, I can't think of anythingthat a politician  is not involved in,  in one capacity or another.

In 1983, in response to the collapse of the stocks, Congress passed the Atlantic Striped Bass Conservation Act, which empowered the ASMFC to adopt coastwide management measures and enforce them through the mechanism of a moratorium, imposed by the Secretary of Commerce, on a non-compliant state.

 

That worked well enough that, in 1994, Congress passed the Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act, which extended the ASMFC's management authority to all ASMFC-managed species, but also gave the Secretary of Commerce the right to make an independent determination of whether a management measure was appropriate before imposing a moratorium (which is how New Jersey escaped a fluke moratorium in 2017, when Chris Christie talked to friends in the Trump White House, resulting in a Secretarial determination that a moratorium would not be appropriate).

 

Then, in 2000, the ASMFC amended its charter to give legislative and governor's appointees equal standing with professional fishery managers, which allowed parties with vested interests to impact the process without legal constraints.

 

So the ASMFC sets management measures that can be enforced under the aegis of a Secretarial moratorium.  Politics does not play a direct role at the management board level.  However, a governor can certainly tell a state fishery manager how to vote on an issue (used to happen to protect Omega Protein in Virginia prior to the current administration, and probably explains some of Maryland's striped bass positions since Hogan becane governor), and politics comes into play when a governor picks an appointee or a legislator picks a proxy.  And, as mentioned in the New Jersey fluke example, politics can come into play when a moratorium is on the table, although the New Jersey case was the only time that the ASMFC was overruled in something like 20 non-compliance findings.

 

But having followed the process for a few decades, I'd argue that the personal interests/biases of the legislative and governors' appointees impacts the process far more than politics does.

"I have always believed that outdoor writers who come out against fish and wildlife conservation are in the wrong business. To me, it makes as much sense golf writers coming out against grass.."  --  Ted Williams

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23 hours ago, chisler said:

There is a portion of my thoughts that does mention disbanding commissions.  ......

Disbanding commissions leaves you with something worse:  Total chaos, with no one either empowered or willing to act on a coastwide basis.

 

That's the situation we had prior to 1983, and was one factor contributing to the stock collapse--no state wanted to adopt regulations more restrictive than neighboring states' regulations, and so disadvantage its fishermen while the fish protected in one state would merely be killed in another.  It's why the Atlantic Striped Bass Conservation Act was passed in the first place--to force coastwide unanimity.

 

What we need is legislation that would force the ASMFC to act more like a regional fishery management council, with a legal obligation to prevent overfishing, rebuild stocks within a time certain, etc.

"I have always believed that outdoor writers who come out against fish and wildlife conservation are in the wrong business. To me, it makes as much sense golf writers coming out against grass.."  --  Ted Williams

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4 mins ago, CWitek said:

 

That worked well enough that, in 1994, Congress passed the Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act, which extended the ASMFC's management authority to all ASMFC-managed species, but also gave the Secretary of Commerce the right to make an independent determination of whether a management measure was appropriate before imposing a moratorium.

So is there any benefit to petitioning the Secretary of Commerce for a moratorium>game fish status schenario?  Essentially trying to bypass the ASMFC.

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20 hours ago, chisler said:

I feel that long standing political figures develope relationships, and in extreme cases "partnerships" with acute stakeholders (lobby, buddy, commercial entity) to best serve their interests. The relationships become such that instead of it being a consideration to accept the acute stakeholders position, it becomes a matter of process.  Or, a position of norm.

Although, my knowledge of this commission is limited, other commissions I've viewed suffered from the problem of 'age and influence' by weighting special stakeholder's  input more than others.  It becomes hard to break up the relationships, and ultimately you need to just disband the commission.  

 

The influences of politicas are terribly deep, and it's a frustrating topic for me.

 

 

You're not wrong.   There's a lot of truth to the saying that "80 percent of life is just showing up."  Managers get to know, and to some extent work with and trust, people who come to the meetings, and speak to them on the side, and work to make contributions to the process.  There are trusted advisors, as well as other stakeholder spokesmen who, for various reasons, are not respected and are avoided when possible.

 

Where anglers fall down is that they don't want to be part of the process, although they may turn out in crisis situations.

 

The management process is complicated; people talk about it without understanding it, and when they do that at meetings, they are discounted.  What they need to do is show up at the table, learn how things really work, and then work to move the process in their, and hopefully the resource's, favor.  But anglers don't want to give up a couple of vacation days, or a couple of nights of fishing, or make similar sacrifices, to participate in fishery management.  Instead, they rely on others.  And my experience is that such others are generally connected, either personally or finaicially, to an industry that is more concerned with short-term cash flow than in long-term health of fish stocks.

 

The only way to make things better is to become a part of the process.  Unless folks recognize that, things won't get better, because other folks will participate, and the interests that they represent are not ours.

"I have always believed that outdoor writers who come out against fish and wildlife conservation are in the wrong business. To me, it makes as much sense golf writers coming out against grass.."  --  Ted Williams

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8 mins ago, MikeK said:

So is there any benefit to petitioning the Secretary of Commerce for a moratorium>game fish status schenario?  Essentially trying to bypass the ASMFC.

It's not a bypss.

 

First, the ASMFC must adopt a management measure.  Then, a state must fail to adopt it.  Only then is the Secretary empowered to adopt a moratorium until that state complies.

 

Unless the ASMFC first outlaws the commercial fishery, and a state refuses to comply, there would be no predicate for Secretarial action.

"I have always believed that outdoor writers who come out against fish and wildlife conservation are in the wrong business. To me, it makes as much sense golf writers coming out against grass.."  --  Ted Williams

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