Oakman

Flip Pallot heresy?

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47 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Drew C. said:

I think people way over think their leader ( and a lot of other things). I use a 40lb butt, loop to tippet, that's it. I used that for all my salt fishing and it works well. I know some experienced guys that use straight 20lb mono for everything( poppers, heavily weighted flies, etc). They don't even measure what they use - a couple of pulls of the spool and they're done. That works well for them.

 

I like it simple and I've seen some tapered formulas that just look way too complex. I don't see the need to taper 40-30-20-15-tippet - that's too much work and too many knots.

 

Ultimately, my point is there are a lot of ways to do this. Flip isn't wrong but he's certainly not right either. It's just what he does. When you get to that level you probably get more into the minutia because you've mastered everything else. That level of detail may or may not matter overall and it may or may not matter to someone that isn't quite at that level.

 

 

What's your take on using a fluro butt section for its stiffness tapered to a short stretch of softer mono?  As far as knots go Iv employed a single blood knot connecting my butts to the tippet....

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24 mins ago, DeepBlue85 said:

 

 

What's your take on using a fluro butt section for its stiffness tapered to a short stretch of softer mono?  As far as knots go Iv employed a single blood knot connecting my butts to the tippet....

IMHO, that's over thinking it. I've used fluoro for butt at times but I usually use whatever is around - Ande leader, trilene big game, etc.

 

It's a leader butt, it's really not that important.

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18 hours ago, DAQ said:

The theory is fine but the application is not practical for me. I don't think I will ever buy a line without welded loops again, they are just too convenient for what I do.  

I do both ... if it comes with a loop installed I'll use the factory solution. Other wise I'll tie what Capt Castafly shows using a monofilament Albright knot on the fly lie tip. 

19 hours ago, Capt.Castafly said:

My formula for saltwater fly fishing connections.

Used this method for over 55 years. Never had a failure. 

Use nothing but 30 lbs. leader material, can be monofilament  or fluorocarbon connected to the fly line.

A good length to cut is three feet.

If you go any larger than 30 lbs. test, the larger diameter will not tighten enough around the fly line effectively.

In that case there will be slippage and failure.  

Make sure you cut off the end of the fly line clean about 1/2 inch.

Tie a nail knot of no more than 6 coils. Any more, the inside coils will not tighten sufficiently. This will cause failure.

Lubricate and pull the ends, use pliers on the tag end.

There should be enough on the other side to wrap around your hand.

Pull tight as you can.  Tie a perfection loop on the open end.

All done the length might be close to a foot.   

You can leave it any length you desire.  
 

 

IMG_7164.jpg

With the loop installed switching out fly leaders that fray on the rocks is very useful / functional.

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Here's my take on it for what it's worth (and that ain't worth a whole lot...), I personally like the loops but I know a some top fisherman who don't in the game of tarpon fishing.  Reason being they feel that two loops together get a hinge effect and don't transfer energy to turn over a long leader as well.  I can see this especially when you're using 14-16 ft leaders and need a good transfer of energy to get a good turnover.  I hate cutting off the loops so what I do is slip a 50# mono into the loop and lay it parallel to the fly line and nail knot/uni knot/snell it to the fly line, that way if I ever change my mind it's not hard to get the leader off and use the loop, but the majority of the time I leave it that way and never bother with the loop.  This is for my flats fishing lines where presentation is important - for everything else (mostly bluewater big game flyfishing) I prefer getting rid of the loop for a braided mono loop as I think it's more reliable than a welded loop.

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For more than 40 years, before fly lines came with factory loops, I put short mono loops on all my fly lines, 3-4 inches long including a small perfection loop at the end (and tied to the line with a needle knot preferably to a nail knot). The mono I used to add this loop a line was the same I used for the butt of the leaders (I make my own) to be used with that line (thus mono with a diameter of about 75% of the diameter of the tip of the line). Of course all my leaders also have0 a small perfection loop at the top of the butt. That worked very well for me both strength-wise and casting-wise. And for the past eight years fishing the salt for stripers I've been using  the factory loops without any problem.

 

As for leaders, I agree with Drew C: whatever works for you and you're comfortable with. That being said, I'm partial to what CareyGreene writes about saltwater leaders generally  in another current thread on this Forum, "Leader Formula for Crease Flies". 

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The principles in that video may not be that important for striped bass but I'm sure it makes a big difference for flip fishing for super spooky St. John's river redfish. 

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I think boat vs wade comes into play a bit here too. When I’m on foot I’m carrying one rod generally, I want to be able to switch leaders quickly depending on the fishing style/water I encounter, so loop makes more sense. I think on a boat it’s easier to have multiple rods set up for specific techniques and the nail knot makes sense.  I’ve been running 20lb chameleon to 15 and 12lb maxima to tippet ring (7’ 60/20/20) for indicator fishing without issue. If I’m throwing heavier flies/streamers I’ll bump up to 30lb butt section. 

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Funny I saw that video 2 weeks ago and had to look at the date it was made, thought it a little odd and dated. I guess for specific applications, maybe a long taper leader for a delicate flats presentation it has advantages turnover wise versus loop connection. Welded loops have come a long way  but years ago when I started with shooting heads I learned to properly make double catch braided loops and use them on most of my flylines. The loops can be made small, they pass thru guides better than a welded loop and way better than any knotted butt section. I'm a huge fan of Flip Pallot so whatever his reasoning he'd get no argument from me!

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19 hours ago, Suave said:

(and tied to the line with a needle knot preferably to a nail knot).

Good to see someone mention the needle knot, that's what I've been using for 50 years in fresh and salt and never had a problem.  It makes a nice transition from fly line to leader butt.

 

 

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FYI the discussion in the current thread "Leader Formula for Crease Flies" on this Forum has veered to saltwater leaders and their connection to the fly line.

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2 mins ago, Suave said:

FYI the discussion in the current thread "Leader Formula for Crease Flies" on this Forum has veered to saltwater leaders and their connection to the fly line.

That it has. I prefer to throw crease flies with my 10wt...the extra mass makes it easier. All my 10wt lines sport the same leader...4ft of 60lb, 2ft of 40lb, and for crease flies the shortest and lightest tippet I can get away with. Intermediate or full sink line only...the crease fly was developed as a subsurface swimmer, not a popper.

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Lefty said it best when he said there’s more bull**** in fly fishing than a Kansas feed lot. Applies aptly to leaders. The welded loop and the loop to loop connection is a game changer. Anybody that wants to nip away at hundred dollar fly line because of some non existent or unnoticeable hinge action just likes to hear himself talk at the fly shop water cooler. if the line didn’t have the welded loop than adding a piece of 30 or 40lb mini butt is a no brainer because it limits the nipping away of the fly line. 
 

leaders are way over thought and over analyzed. Leaders are about the least of my concern in the salt water and frankly not much of a thought in freshwater. If my fly isn’t turning over the way I want I simply adjust my leader through addition or subtraction. At the end of the day my leader is some bastardized version of how it began life and it fished as well with streamers, nymphs, dries and whatever as it did when I started. A welded loop or not does not change that. 

Edited by poopdeck

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I do the same thing though I double my fly line up then nail knot it so the coating won’t pull off.

I never pay $100.00 for a fly line I buy NOS on eBay no need to spend that on a line IMHO

Edited by mkus

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2 hours ago, poopdeck said:

Lefty said it best when he said there’s more bull**** in fly fishing than a Kansas feed lot. Applies aptly to leaders. The welded loop and the loop to loop connection is a game changer. Anybody that wants to nip away at hundred dollar fly line because of some non existent or unnoticeable hinge action just likes to hear himself talk at the fly shop water cooler. if the line didn’t have the welded loop than adding a piece of 30 or 40lb mini butt is a no brainer because it limits the nipping away of the fly line. 
 

leaders are way over thought and over analyzed. Leaders are about the least of my concern in the salt water and frankly not much of a thought in freshwater. If my fly isn’t turning over the way I want I simply adjust my leader through addition or subtraction. At the end of the day my leader is some bastardized version of how it began life and it fished as well with streamers, nymphs, dries and whatever as it did when I started. A welded loop or not does not change that. 

This!

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