makorider

First surf build and need some help. Lots o help really

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Time to blow the dust off my lathe and get back to it.  Been out of the game for about 4 years dealing with projects on two new houses in 18 months or so.  I think she's done.  Please god lol

 

So long story, but suffice it to say I lost a bet to my boss.  Deal was, if I lost, I had to build him rod.  He lives in Brielle, fishes the wall and out front, so after much back and forth and looking online etc we kind of settled on what he wanted.  Then I dropped the ball, and recently 2 MHX SU1087F which are 9', 12-25 1-4 showed up at my door.  He was nice enough to buy me one, said if I'm doing one do two.

 

SO...I've never built a surf rod, and really have only done conventionals.  I barely know what I'm doing with spinning, surf seems to be like another world with these longer sticks, you surf guys seem to have your own language.

 

So I've looked at the different guide layout theories - but who knows?  I'm ignorant enough to not even be able to form an opinion.

 

My initial thought is we will start with something shimano in 4K or 5K?  Feel free to tell me I'm wrong

 

I'm at a complete loss as to where to start with guide type and spacing.  If it means anything, I'm a big fan of micro guides on my inshore conventionals, love the "bare" stick feel and the action.  Less is much more as far as I'm concerned.

 

My next issue is the butt and foregrip - I'm 6-1, he's 6-5, what is a starting point for a 'normal' butt and fore grip length on this type of rod??

 

I honestly don't know where to start.  Need to make some decisions and get components moving.  Any help is much appreciated!!

 

Edit:  Goal is to have a general all around rod - tossing tin or plugs.  Neither of us, me in particular, is surf-centric enough to have a quiver with dedicated application specific rods

Edited by makorider

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The two guide layouts you should read about are the fuji New Guide Concept and KR concept. KR is high frame small ring micro guides, NGC is similar, just the first 4 guides are bigger. KR is smoother in the cast and cast slightly further. NGC is more flexible to what reel you want to use.

 

Unlike casting rods you really have to build to a particular reel or at least reel attributes. Spool diameter and main shaft location with spool extended being the two big ones. 

 

I find handles to be slightly shorter with spinners than casting rods b/c your hand straddles a spinning reel as opposed to a casting reel where your hand is behind it. Your hand placement can be the same in terms of distance apart. That's very subjective and up to you. What feels good to some might feel really long or short and tight to you. 

 

In NGC and KR you can build all double foot or all single foot. For NGC this means using KW guides (double) or KL guides (single).

 

For KR, the only double foot option available is the RV train, which comes in titanium silicon carbide as the lowest tier option. Pricey. In single foot there's KL-H guides which are same cost as NGC. 

 

For a 9' rod an NGC layout is probably going to be like $50-60 or so. For an double foot KR layout it can be $200+ easily. You can obviously get titanium guides for NGC, it's just going to be more expensive. If you aren't fishing a lot then the base steel guides are just fine. 

 

For a rod like that for everything up north I'd probably go with KLH 25, 12, 6M and size 6 runners, as many as I'd need. A simple single foot micro guide layout. Handle length depends on you, if you use shrink wrap over the bare blank an extra inch or 5 on your foregrip is pretty inconsequential to weight. 

 

Lot of threads here on builds and such. Use of the search feature will get you started figuring out what you want real fast. 

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The K.I.S.S way would be to simply use KWs.  Grumpys in seaside sells them and builds tons of surf stuff.  You could support are small business, get what you need, and get the advice as to where you need to put the guides in one stop.  ( maybe get a fishing report too lol)  

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usually start with a 17" (distance behind the reel seat to the butt) and a 6" foregrip om a 9 foot rod. the guide info given is good. I would definitely go with Fuji guides and they do give you plenty of options. The RV are great but expensive the KR single foot are also very good but a little different than what most are used to. For a all round rod like you are building a set of the KW guides would be a very good choice. tbush mention going to Grumpys, by far the best advice you have gotten so far. Give them a ring and find out when Bob is in, great guy, local to where you are fishing and a great rod builder. I believe he carrys all of Fujis guides and he will help you set it up.

Edited by SurffisherMike

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Posted (edited) · Report post

23 hours ago, RedGreen said:

The two guide layouts you should read about are the fuji New Guide Concept and KR concept. KR is high frame small ring micro guides, NGC is similar, just the first 4 guides are bigger. KR is smoother in the cast and cast slightly further. NGC is more flexible to what reel you want to use.

 

Unlike casting rods you really have to build to a particular reel or at least reel attributes. Spool diameter and main shaft location with spool extended being the two big ones. 

Yep, I had read up on that...and I get, kind of.

 

I was aware of the set up being reel specific.  Without a reel picked out/in hand, may I assume that anything Shimano in say a 4000 size will have the same measurements?  Or no?

23 hours ago, RedGreen said:

 

In NGC and KR you can build all double foot or all single foot. For NGC this means using KW guides (double) or KL guides (single).

 

For KR, the only double foot option available is the RV train, which comes in titanium silicon carbide as the lowest tier option. Pricey. In single foot there's KL-H guides which are same cost as NGC. 

 

For a 9' rod an NGC layout is probably going to be like $50-60 or so. For an double foot KR layout it can be $200+ easily. You can obviously get titanium guides for NGC, it's just going to be more expensive. If you aren't fishing a lot then the base steel guides are just fine. 

I kind of had single foot KL-H in my head before posting this, wanted to get some feedback without polluting thoughts with my nonsense

23 hours ago, RedGreen said:

 

For a rod like that for everything up north I'd probably go with KLH 25, 12, 6M and size 6 runners, as many as I'd need. A simple single foot micro guide layout. Handle length depends on you, if you use shrink wrap over the bare blank an extra inch or 5 on your foregrip is pretty inconsequential to weight. 

 

Now we get to the meat of it.  I havn't had time to sit down and really dig in with a search, but I've paid modest attention over the years so had a very basic understanding.  Unfortunately, I think Tim's search feature really lacks.

 

Moving on to spacing....and correct me if I'm wrong...but I've seen software derived layouts here, but thats more for NGC layouts, correct?  No?

 

Where do I start with spacing on a KR?  Again, please excuse the fact that I havn't had  a chance to really dig in and search yet.

3 hours ago, SurffisherMike said:

usually start with a 17" (distance behind the reel seat to the butt) and a 6" foregrip om a 9 foot rod. the guide info given is good. I would definitely go with Fuji guides and they do give you plenty of options. The RV are great but expensive the KR single foot are also very good but a little different than what most are used to. For a all round rod like you are building a set of the KW guides would be a very good choice. tbush mention going to Grumpys, by far the best advice you have gotten so far. Give them a ring and find out when Bob is in, great guy, local to where you are fishing and a great rod builder. I believe he carrys all of Fujis guides and he will help you set it up.

Thanks for that, that gives me a starting point to play around with.

 

Would love to be able to get down to Grumpys, I'm on CBI when down, kids activities are keeping me up north for the next few weeks for the most part and want to get moving on this.  Not impossible...maybe a good excuse to get down and work from there for a couple days lol

 

And thank you all for chiming in and helping.  I've probably built 40-50 rods to date, one of which was a spinner, and my first....very basic.  Getting into new territory and out of my comfort zone, obviously, here...so thanks

Edited by makorider

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On 3/12/2021 at 3:17 PM, RedGreen said:

 

For a rod like that for everything up north I'd probably go with KLH 25, 12, 6M and size 6 runners, as many as I'd need. A simple single foot micro guide layout. Handle length depends on you, if you use shrink wrap over the bare blank an extra inch or 5 on your foregrip is pretty inconsequential to weight. 

 

 

On 3/13/2021 at 5:46 PM, SurffisherMike said:

there is a kr gps on angler resource. good starting point there

So I'm messing around trying to figure these builds out, wanted to get your guys thoughts

 

Granted, very very rough numbers on reel spacing etc, Angler's Resource comes up with:

Buildplan.jpg.6cc0b8b45499392e1bfd33f28839d42f.jpg

 

Had unrelated questions on something, called Mudhole to clarify, got talking with the guy and asked for his input,

 

He suggested KLH-25 - KLH-16 - KLM-8 to KT-6 runners.

 

Thoughts on the two approaches?

 

In my ignorance, I'm inclined to believe him over the software.

 

Any input appreciated.

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it depends on the reel and line you are using but 25,16 isnt a good combo, you'll want 25 12 as stated by RedGreen if the reel and line combo call fot that. i think you said a 4000-5000 sized reel. not sure on the line but if you end up over 20lb test brain you'll want to start with the 25. gives you options if you change your reel and line. if you play with the gps it should come up with the 25,12, combo. you may need to set the line to mono , believe it only goes up to 20lb braid. for the type of fishing you are doing and the reel and line you plan on and may be using i would use this layout 

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14 mins ago, SurffisherMike said:

it depends on the reel and line you are using but 25,16 isnt a good combo, you'll want 25 12 as stated by RedGreen if the reel and line combo call fot that. i think you said a 4000-5000 sized reel. not sure on the line but if you end up over 20lb test brain you'll want to start with the 25. gives you options if you change your reel and line. if you play with the gps it should come up with the 25,12, combo. you may need to set the line to mono , believe it only goes up to 20lb braid. for the type of fishing you are doing and the reel and line you plan on and may be using i would use this layout 

Well, its a 12-25 rod, so 20# Braid which is enough for most anyting off the beach IMO, definately not 30.  20 is what I plugged into the GPS, I don't think anyone makes a 25 # line, do they?

 

How does that change your calculation?  Unless my guestimation of where the face of the spool sits is is way off, I don't changes in the GPS

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The different line will change the guides you use. For that setup I would start with a 25, you maybe able to use a 20 but I prefer the 25. Test cast both setup and see what you like 

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10 hours ago, makorider said:

He suggested KLH-25 - KLH-16 - KLM-8 to KT-6 runners

 

Guy at Mudhole is wrong.

He is thinking you can swap RV set up suggestions  with KL-H, you can't.

SF Mike & Redgreen are on the money.

KL16H is a stripper guide and is too tall to be used after the 25H

25H 12H 8M 7L is a really nice reduction.

8M straight to KT6 or KB runners works ok-ish, but I really like the use of a KL-L as a raised choke

 

 

 

2021-03-17 (1).png

Edited by ZAFisher

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9 hours ago, ZAFisher said:

 

Guy at Mudhole is wrong.

He is thinking you can swap RV set up suggestions  with KL-H, you can't.

SF Mike & Redgreen are on the money.

KL16H is a stripper guide and is too tall to be used after the 25H

25H 12H 8M 7L is a really nice reduction.

8M straight to KT6 or KB runners works ok-ish, but I really like the use of a KL-L as a raised choke

 

 

 

2021-03-17 (1).png

 

Wow, thanks for that ZA!

 

Does the reel matter in your computer model?  What distance does it show (does it?) from reel face to the 25 guide?  I'm trying to convert metric to imperial in my head and figure out how many running guides I'll need lol.  

 

So 25-12 it is.....getting closer, thanks all

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I knocked up the drawing is just to show how the guides line up, and why a KLK16H after a KL25H is not such a good idea, so not specific to a reel.

Would work on a 8-9' 1-3 or 1-4.

Spacing would be influenced by reel position ie how much rod is left over.

Say for 5K Stradic on a 9', 550-600mm from spool face would work with a bit of fiddling

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28 mins ago, ZAFisher said:

I knocked up the drawing is just to show how the guides line up, and why a KLK16H after a KL25H is not such a good idea, so not specific to a reel.

Would work on a 8-9' 1-3 or 1-4.

Spacing would be influenced by reel position ie how much rod is left over.

Say for 5K Stradic on a 9', 550-600mm from spool face would work with a bit of fiddling

Roger that and thank you

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