Billl nye

Fly rod for outbound short

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No, its you......and very definitely so.

 

Lefty would have gobbled up the information available today and adapted his teaching accordingly.  Of that I'm sure.  He didn't have the high speed cameras and motion analysis technology to analyze what he was doing at the time.  The timing issues occur over 10's of milliseconds, way too fast for him to perceive without technology that didn't exist when he was formulating his teaching method.  But Lefty did correctly understand and teach that haul timing was critical, that excess rod hand power application was bad, and that haul speed was the "accelerator" needed to achieve high line speeds for distance casts.  All this is still considered foundational knowledge.  It is just that peak haul speed has most of its positive effect on the cast by increasing line speed AS THE ROD IS UNBENDING rather than on making the rod bend more (or "loading the rod" as you seem to think is so important).  Hauling too hard too soon in an effort to "load the rod" more does do that, but ruins the cast.  The same can be said for applying rod hand power but that is another discussion.     

 

As for your "Thrash away as hard and fast as you can and just live the the result" school of casting.....well I don't recall Lefty teaching anything like that but if it works for you, great. 

 

Goodbye. 

 

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10 hours ago, Cpalms said:

 

 

To the OP, when I said don't listen when you get chastised about the right way to cast ^^^^this is it. Seen it a million times before. These ninny's lurk around this sport pointing their fat little fingers at whoever or whatever they deem objectionable.  Because after all they have their 30 years of VHS tapes, snarky rhetorical questions mixed in with lots of carefully crafted yoga speak and gobbledygook to fall back on.

 

Ignore 100% of it.  This is a study in what not to do - on and off the water.

 

Go fishing, have fun and do your best to deliver the fly to the fish's face - that's all that matters. One false cast and chuck it and you too will be able to out fish this guy with your eyes closed. It's that simple.

 

And dream that one day you will be able to cast half as poorly as the "outdated and misinformed" Lefty Kreh.

 

:clown:

Hi Cp

 

I think numbskul could have been a lot more diplomatic but our knowledge does advance. I am having lessons and have real trouble trying to maximise the haul speed at max rod bend just before the stop as it is bloody difficult for me.

I have always had an immense regard for Lefty the grandfather of casting as we know it today. No doubt he advanced fly casting hugely. He challenged old beliefs to. He probably got critiqued for his five principles in the early days. But bless him he stuck with it.

I only wish I can cast as well as he did. But I doubt that will happen.

Most guys don’t seem to give much of a hoot as to the technicalities as long as they can hoof a fly out there some how. Then there are the others and truth is I am now one of them that enjoy delving into the technical finer points.
 

Mike

 

 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Hi again 

 

I see there has been some lively debate since I last checked in!  I have been fly fishing for trout for a while as I said and now enjoy going for bluegills with my kids so I try to keep things simple.  
 

Some observations I made with my limited experience in salt water fishing...  I was just looking to get out on the water as cheaply as possible because I already spend too much money on trout gear and fly tying stuff so I had to fly under the radar so I wouldn’t have to hear it from the wife!  I ended up getting the fenwick on close out and picked up a rio mainstream clear intermediate line cheap.  I normally fish SA or orvis lines and immediately hated the way it cast.  I wasn’t sure if it was the line or rod as I didn’t have a lot of experience with this type of rod or fishing style but I knew I needed something different.  After doing a bunch of reading here and on other forums I decided to give a shooting head a try because I realized some of the problems I was having might be helped by this type of line. 
 

As all of you know since you are far more experienced than I am the casting window in a lot of areas where stripers live makes bombing a long cast and carrying a lot of line in the air tough: steep beaches, reeds and trees as well as high winds.  I figured that it made sense to try out a line I could just pick up and shoot!

 

I do believe that the fenwick would suffice in casting the line but it isn’t as pleasant or easy as I believe it could be and that’s why I am asking about a new rod.  Between work and the kids I don’t get out on the water as much as I’d like so I try to optimize the experience as much as possible since there is no point struggling if there is a better option available.

 

I appreciate everyone’s input especially in regards to rod selection and casting lessons!  As a teacher myself I agree that there is always something new to learn and I am by no means a casting expert although I can do enough to get by.  I know my question seemed backwards to many of you since you choose a line for the rod typically but I did see a marked improvement in getting the fly where it needed to be with a shooting head and was just hoping to find a rod that matched the line style and perhaps had a little more backbone to punch into the wind when called for.

 

Thanks to all of you who contributed to this thread!  Your gracious sharing of knowledge and experience has definitely helped me decide on what to do going forward!  Now if you could just give me some advice on how to convince your wife to buy a boat my fishing life would be complete!

Edited by Billl nye

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10 mins ago, numbskull said:

No, its you......and very definitely so.

 

Lefty would have gobbled up the information available today and adapted his teaching accordingly.  Of that I'm sure.  He didn't have the high speed cameras and motion analysis technology to analyze what he was doing at the time.  The timing issues occur over 10's of milliseconds, way too fast for him to perceive without technology that didn't exist when he was formulating his teaching method.  But Lefty did correctly understand and teach that haul timing was critical, that excess rod hand power application was bad, and that haul speed was the "accelerator" needed to achieve high line speeds for distance casts.  All this is still considered foundational knowledge.  It is just that peak haul speed has most of its positive effect on the cast by increasing line speed AS THE ROD IS UNBENDING rather than on making the rod bend more (or "loading the rod" as you seem to think is so important).  Hauling too hard too soon in an effort to "load the rod" more does do that, but ruins the cast.  The same can be said for applying rod hand power but that is another discussion.     

 

As for your "Thrash away as hard and fast as you can and just live the the result" school of casting.....well I don't recall Lefty teaching anything like that but if it works for you, great. 

 

Goodbye. 

 

 

If you are going to quote me, please go ahead and quote me - because if you can't you are just being dishonest. Just as dishonest as putting thoughts into a dead man's mind just because it suits your argument.

 

But please continue with the yoga babble..."The timing issues occur over 10's of milliseconds, way too fast for him" ...what a nugget!  That's a sure fire way to improve your catch rate!

 

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11 hours ago, The Fisherman said:

 

Mike, this is so damn funny I have to steal it. Truly great stuff, sir!

 

Steve Culton

Steve

 

Sadly I have seen this too many times. Some one in a Trout fly fishing book must have said when you play a fish high stick it and do not dare to try and put any pressure on your inadequate  tippet.

They just don’t understand how strong 20 test leaders are.

 

The other saying  we have is that if the fish you are playing starts to feed you are taking a tad too long.

 

Many a joke spouted forth  in jest has a wonderful basis in reality.

 

Happy days and you are welcome to have it for free.

 

cheers

 

Mikey

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12 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Hi Cp

 

I think numbskul could have been a lot more diplomatic but our knowledge does advance. I am having lessons and have real trouble trying to maximise the haul speed at max rod bend just before the stop as it is bloody difficult for me.

 

 

 

 

See here is the problem Mike,  It is very likely the OP is like 99% of the other fly fisherman out there.  He likes fly fishing, wants to catch more and different fish with a fly rod when the time allows it. Been there.  He comes here looking for honest straight forward help. Unfortunately being around here enough, I recognize that his question is like throwing raw meat to starving dogs. Know it alls lurk around here waiting to pounce.  Which this numbskull character did as sure as the day is long.  Wagging his finger at straightforward advice and mocking hero's of the sport. Going on and on about the right way and wrong way to do this thing based on his singular judgment.  It's counterproductive to bringing fish to hand, as simple as that.  

 

Want to talk about the extreme cutting edge of the sport? go right ahead but don't do it in a thread where a guy just looking for help with a new rod. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Oliver said:

Steve

 

Sadly I have seen this too many times. Some one in a Trout fly fishing book must have said when you play a fish high stick it and do not dare to try and put any pressure on your inadequate  tippet.

They just don’t understand how strong 20 test leaders are.

 

The other saying  we have is that if the fish you are playing starts to feed you are taking a tad too long.

 

Many a joke spouted forth  in jest has a wonderful basis in reality.

 

 

I see far too many sub-slot fish put on the reel. 

 

My whole "Trout Fishing For Stripers" presentation is about approach and tactics taken from traditional trout and salmon approaches. Rest assured, it does not involve 8x tippets and cane poles. 20-pound is the basically the lightest material I use, and I often reference the immortal Stu Apte's quote, "To play him long is to play him wrong."

 

:-)

 

Steve Culton

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4 mins ago, The Fisherman said:

I see far too many sub-slot fish put on the reel. 

 

I took a good fishing buddy out for his first saltwater trip in Jamaica Bay last year.  He put every fish on the reel, each one 18"-22". 

 

On the way home, he very innocently asked me, with this puppy dog look on his face: Why did you and Danny (our friend and guide) say "PUTTIN' IT ON THE REEL!" and laugh every time I hooked a fish?   

 

Hysterical, still makes me laugh.

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7 hours ago, JCH said:

I took a good fishing buddy out for his first saltwater trip in Jamaica Bay last year.  He put every fish on the reel, each one 18"-22". 

 

On the way home, he very innocently asked me, with this puppy dog look on his face: Why did you and Danny (our friend and guide) say "PUTTIN' IT ON THE REEL!" and laugh every time I hooked a fish?   

 

Hysterical, still makes me laugh.

I prefer putting fish on the reel.  I grew up spin fishing and that’s what I’m used to. I didn’t realize this was controversial or worth ridicule.  Is it frowned upon to put fish on a reel?  

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To the OP:

 

I have a 9 wt BVK that throws a 9wt OBS (375g) pretty perfectly. But an 8wt OBS is definitely trickier on an 8wt BVK, even though its a very fast rod. Not sure why. Maybe because the 9wt is a big jump up in their format and more similar to the 10wt. 

 

Either way, if you're fishing stripers, it's nice to have a 9wt. I've read great things about the T&T Zone and will be buying one before too long. A 9wt Zone might be a good rod for an 8wt OBS while also allowing you to fish 9wt lines for other situations you might find yourself in. 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

10 hours ago, ryc72 said:

I prefer putting fish on the reel.  I grew up spin fishing and that’s what I’m used to. I didn’t realize this was controversial or worth ridicule.  Is it frowned upon to put fish on a reel?  

Spin fishing you are already on the reel

  

 

Its not ridicule that’s ugly plain ugly. It is just a bit of banter and piss take,

 

If you are fishing stout leaders and tippets salt water and you hook into a small fish say twenty inches or less then there is little point putting the fish on the reel. You don’t need drag on a small fish. It is much quicker to land a small fish my stripping in line and that causes way less stress to a little fish. Best to unhook if possible whilst still in the water to.

 

Large fish that can pull drag are best put onto the reel as soon as we can.

 

The issues many of us have seen is guys piddling around with tiny fish putting them on the reel and literally playing with them. It is excruitiating to watch.

 

Can we be surprised when our Spin brethren think we are a bunch of Whimps. That’s the politest  word I can come up with. LOL 

 

Mike.    

Edited by Mike Oliver

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10 hours ago, ryc72 said:

I didn’t realize this was controversial or worth ridicule. 

 

It's not!  It was just good natured ribbing among friends.  Many of us generally just don't bother because it's not necessary on smaller fish, particularly with 20# tippet.  It sometimes results in fish being played longer than necessary.

 

I adhere to the point of view that fish put you on a reel, not the other way around.  But you should fish how you want!

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22 mins ago, JCH said:

 

It sometimes results in fish being played longer than necessary.

 

 

"Sometimes" is the important word in that sentence.

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