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Two hand fly lines for the salt

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Ajefferslyon

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On 6/28/2024 at 12:36 PM, Mike Oliver said:

I like Killies ratio. Trust us both on this if you have a head sitting on or worse in the water and it is too long to unplug with your rod you will not be able to make a cast period.

The cast I describe is for any density fly line yes including floaters.

We can't just drag a floating line off the water when fishing large flies or flies with weight added to them. We have to break the clutch of the water. For me same deal if fishing streamers in rivers with a floating line.

 

I have to say that it took me a long time to "get it" in terms of performing an overhead cast with heads of various lengths.  It was Mike O. description of how to set up a cast, and how to execute a roll cast into the air that finally made it make sense. 

 

My first trials were with heads (or integrate lines) that were too long.  I learned to keep some of the head portion inside the rod tip - but then I found that I had issues with really fat floating lines (11wt-13wt tarpon lines, initially) because the held back portion of line wouldn't move back easily enough through the rod tip, and hampered the cast.  Multiple lines, multiple trials on multiple (at least 6) TH rods (rated from 375g to 660g) led me to realize that the best combinations (at least for me) were shorter INTERMEDIATE skagits 22-24ft) with added int or (10ft) sink tips, or longer (31-33ft) Rage heads, used with no tips but only a leader (or light polyleader, then leader).  The 1:2.6 ratio (on average) came from those trials and the notes taken from them.

 

Also as time went on, I found that the floating lines and heads almost always worked best on my longer TH rods (12ft- 13.5ft) which I did not purchase initially), and my intermediate Skagits + tips seemed to go with my shorter two hand rods (11ft-11'6").  What was once a seeming disagreement with Mike O seemed to be resolved by head length/rod length ratios held constant, with primarily rod length differing)...and maybe with some fine tuning added for the intermediates and int/sink heads -- i.e. these have to be shorter, because they are harder to unplug.

 

When two people who often disagreed at one point in time, but then settle their differences and realize why, it is cause for celebration I think.  Mike, please forgive me for disagreeing and/or not understanding some of this stuff way earlier.  I think (as the Brits say) this disagreement is now "well sorted."

 

I hope that SOL continues to be available for the kinds of discussion and argumentation it provides. 

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6 hours ago, Killiefish said:

I hope that SOL continues to be available for the kinds of discussion and argumentation it provides. 

As someone who is new to SOL and constantly lurking in this thread - I want to thank all of you for the discussion.  I've learned SO much from this thread alone.

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Dear killie your post above brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for your thoughtful words. I am quite emotional currently asnmy mental health is in pieces. 

It would be so sad for Tim and us all if SOL were to close..We have made so many friends over the years. Right now Sol is a life line for me. Not posting so much but reading  a lot. In.fact it would be devastating. We have thousands of members. A subscription would be better than losing Sol.

Mike

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This is a great discussion. Has anybody used the Guideline 3D+ Compact heads or the Gaelforce Equalizer EMT multi-tip heads? The Guideline heads look interesting. They come in a variety of sink rates and weights up to 570 grains, with lengths less than 30 feet. Guideline says they can be used without adding tips or polyleaders, just add a mono leader and go fish. The Gaelforce heads come as a kit with different tips and weights up to 725 grains (head plus tip). However, they may be a bit long for TH overhead casting with rods in the 11 to 12 foot range (32 feet at 432 grains up to 42 feet at 725 grains).

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On 6/28/2024 at 3:36 PM, Mike Oliver said:

Killie,

 

Yes that ratio makes sense. My stick is 12'9". Head around 35 feet but you can't trust Airflow and could be 33 feet.lol. But when preparing to recast I have to pull in around 3 feet inside the rod guides to enable the unplugging of the fly line before starting a new cast. The fun part is releasing this line into the single back cast plus about a foot of running line.  You do this by loosening  your grip of the fly line and letting it slip. I hold the line against the cork with my top hand.  The line is passed over the back of the reel and held in the lower hand to.  I found that you have to do it this way to be able to hang onto the line when coming forward into the delivery cast. You seriously need both hands. After a bit of practice you learn to gauge the right amount of feed into the back cast. Sure when the hands are super wet you can feed too much. Or the line slips way too much and you have to re set. Mostly you get it right. It's fun to do. Now at night I pull in the head until I can feel the join with the running  line.  So around 11 feet if head is inside the guides now. But there is still enough head outside the rod tip to allow us to release that line into the back cast. At night so nice to be able to only make a lift, roll cast forward, pick line out of the air into a single back cast and deliver. Bang line Mostly comes tight to the reel. Lots of tactile feedback. Does it take long to aquire these skills. Not really providing you have a decent overhead cast to start with. Can we do it 100% of the time. No we are human. Is it way easier and safer than a single  hander. You bet it is. Chalk and cheese comparison.

I like Killies ratio. Trust us both on this if you have a head sitting on or worse in the water and it is too long to unplug with your rod you will not be able to make a cast period.

The cast I describe is for any density fly line yes including floaters.

We can't just drag a floating line off the water when fishing large flies or flies with weight added to them. We have to break the clutch of the water. For me same deal if fishing streamers in rivers with a floating line.

For clarity not going into a water haul set up should the water be nice and flat.

Is everyone still with me. Lol.

I have taught first timer TH guys this cast in less than two hours. Sure not every cast worked. But heh a few weeks down the line and they can cast for the USA.

This cast is definately the one to use when casting  over waves. We don't want surf messing with our cast so we keep it in the air. Of course it works on flat water.

 

Now wash my mouth out with soap and water if on flat water and good conditions you could put in a false cast if you know your first back cast did not go straight.

With a TH if your back cast does not go high and with enough intent to need drift your forward cast will be very very poor.  You will be initially trying to take first of all slack out the system so you lose rod stroke and arc. This will likely kead to creep. Hello to tailing loops. Many guys are unaware that their back casts are not straight because they never look at their back cast. Many will tell you its bad form to watch your back cast. Wonder who taught them that. Funnily enough it is the none lookers who have the worse casts. Ok ok when you get good at this you don't need to watch your back cast because you will have enough energy in the line to feel it. Back casts that barely make it will often produce a crap foreward cast. We do have to be careful when watching our back cast not to turn our shoulder and put the rod off track. If your kneck is flexible enough it should only be the head. One last tip. Watch it to almost the very end. Tons of guys will turn their heads but return it to the front when the line is only still half way there. But swear that they are watching their back cast. Could this convince you that often we believe we are doing something that we are not.

This only came clear to me when I began to teach. The teachers eyes have it over the very best casting videos.

I hope the above is helpful. If not jump on a jet plane and come over for a day of free TH lessons.  That's cheaper than a life time of never getting it quite right. FWIW I travelled 20,000 miles in two years to get my lessons.  Am I wealthy am I as Heck. Never earned more than $42000 a year in my life. Lol. Mike

 

Rereading this. 
Wealth of information. 

Thanks, Mike
Tom

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