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Two hand fly lines for the salt

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Ajefferslyon

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Totally agree killie. I did it because I needed shooting heads in various densities between 750 and 850 grains, for really gnarly conditions to move big flies through a lot of weather. They aren't nearly as graceful as a scandi head but they don't clunk either if you can believe it. Spey heads get that heavy but the issue is they're usually extremely long and don't turn over large flies well. During the day a 42' head isn't an issue to manage. At night, it is much more difficult. My go to head lengths are around 35-37.5', even for my 14'ers. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/17/2020 at 2:38 AM, RedGreen said:

Regarding Killiefish's post on needing very heavy shooting heads, it's not that hard really. Who says you need a skagit tip with a Skagit head? The floating head for my 750 grain TH rod consists of two Skagit heads spliced together at the rear after removing their rear tapers. 520 grain and 320, with some of the 520 head cut back to adjust weight. You could easily get past a 1000 grain head doing this, though you might struggle to do it under 42-6' long. Only trouble is these have to have an intermediate portion unless there's a fast sinking Skagit head on the market I'm not aware of.

So, I am now thinking of doing the same (cutting two Skagits to make a Franken-line) but with a goal of 625 grains.  The options are to start with a 400g and 440g Skagit (intermediates) - from an earlier batch of Scientific Anglers Intermediate Skagits that are less bulky than the floaters. 

 

If I use only the front half of the 440 and most of the 400g one (both 22-23ft). I am guessing that the final head will be slightly weight forward, maybe not as weight forward as your effort (530 and 320g).  The goal is also to keep the final head short (~32 to ~34ft).  I haven't cut into the heads yet.  The profile of the final head will be more like a slightly (asymmetric), elliptical football or bullet shape - see example diagrams in earlier posts.  Am also wondering if I should actually reverse the 400g head (which will be placed in back) to create a longer rear taper for evening out the cast - sort of like the stabilizing shaft of an arrow.  Or should I just use the 400's short rear taper intact and in rear (not reversed)?  Your ideas would be most helpful.  I'm not shooting for 1000g.  I'm looking for max performance at 625-630g or so.  Obviously I need to remove some mass in the rear and middle of both heads, and take out 10-12ft, to get to 630g total (down from 880) and 33-34ft. I don't think these come in 320-350g or I might have tried one of those for the rear.

Edited by Killiefish
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59 mins ago, Killiefish said:

So, I am now thinking of doing the same (cutting two Skagits to make a Franken-line) but with a goal of 625 grains.  The options are to start with a 400g and 440g Skagit (intermediates) - from an earlier batch of Scientific Anglers Intermediate Skagits that are less bulky than the floaters. 

 

If I use only the front half of the 440 and most of the 400g one (both 22-23ft). I am guessing that the final head will be slightly weight forward, maybe not as weight forward as your effort (530 and 320g).  The goal is also to keep the final head short (~32 to ~34ft).  I haven't cut into the heads yet.  The profile of the final head will be more like a slightly (asymmetric), elliptical football or bullet shape - see example diagrams in earlier posts.  Am also wondering if I should actually reverse the 400g head (which will be placed in back) to create a longer rear taper for evening out the cast - sort of like the stabilizing shaft of an arrow.  Or should I just use the 400's short rear taper intact and in rear (not reversed)?  Your ideas would be most helpful.  I'm not shooting for 1000g.  I'm looking for max performance at 625-630g or so.  Obviously I need to remove some mass in the rear and middle of both heads, and take out 10-12ft, to get to 630g total (down from 880) and 33-34ft. I don't think these come in 320-350g or I might have tried one of those for the rear.

I made the 320 head my tip, not the 520. I also left the tip head nearly full length so it didn't clunk too hard. I would personally take the 400 as the head, and the 440, cut and flipped backwards to make the rest of the weight. Basically it's a Coke bottle taper. 

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Weight forward lines are great. I made the double Skagit heads the way I did because I knew it would have plenty of turnover already, and wanted to not make it a big clunky mess. You can easily make the head and flip it around if it doesn't work. Experimentation will show what works and what doesn't. Sometimes you just have to jump in and see what happens and go from there.

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So, I keep looking around for a line profile that might perform best for distance and yet be able to deliver larger flies.  The closest I've been able to find are for lines that a) are not made above 10wt (but could be a good pattern to copy) or b) are available above 10wt but have issues (not designed right for overhead).  Here's two examples:

a) line that seems to have the profile I want, but not made above 10wt:  Rio permit line - only in float and too light.  Right to Left.  Note long rear taper.

 

b) line (head only) that has some properties that might work: Rio iFlight (avaiable to 750g or higher), decent taper (if reversed) but problems (it's float/int and reversed it has no rear taper and becomes int/float so not useful for fishing).  This shows it with a darker sink tip added.  Imagine that gone.  Left to Right.  Note long rear (if reversed) taper.

 

I have cast the Rio iFlight head with a tip added, and without a tip but reversed.  It overheads best when reversed and doesn't need a tip.  The two examples are what I would try to create with the two Skagits.  Looking at the second example -  the shorter right part is the rear (more or less) of a Skagit 440g.  The longer rear part is the front 2/3rd of a bit more of the 400g.  If you imagine that the darker tip part on left is a running line with a thick handling section.

 

If you flip the second profile around, you have the first, or very close.  This is my current model for a distance line (over 600g < 700g).  Feedback?

 

 

 

RIO DirectCore Permit.PNG

Rio-i-Flight-600-w-12ftversi.jpg.4b4cf0570ca86af8da15e1afe7e322dd.jpeg

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9 hours ago, sms said:

Killiefish,

 

What length of head & length are you looking for? That is including the tip as that is a must if the head is made from skagit lines, otherwise you will get too bouncy turnover.

Yes, I have a Skagit plus tip solution for the rod.  The rod is an experimental 11ft rod (travel surf/fly spin, 5 piece).  I've tested it mainly with Skagits and tips.  Tested from 450g to 700g the rod really likes 600-630g overhead.  So far the best results have been with a head/tip that come in at 33ft and around 625g.  So, 480g skagit @23ft and 10ft 140g tip (Medium iMow).  Bombs it but yes the delivery is not what I'd call soft.   It dumps.  The rear portion of a Skagit is so overweight that it propels the front portion of the head plus tip into the ground.  Following on an idea that a line made for delivering bulky crab flies softly at a distance, e.g. a Permit taper (see profile above) might work but none are made that heavy (they quit at 10wt).  Thus, my intent was to create a heavy head-to-head combo, using two skagits, one reversed*, to approximate the profile.  Oddly enough when I compared that profile to my existing heads, I found one that was already close.  It's the Rio iFlight (at right, above) and I have one that is 625g (bought long ago for use with a 12"6" 9wt spey rod).  I reversed it and cast it on the 11ft experimental rod, and got the best distances yet with that rod apprx 90-110ft (albeit no wind) - with just a 5ft poly tip.  The profile of the head is strangely similar (if reversed) to a Permit line.  Also, it has more of a front taper than a standard Skagit (see diagram).

 

* I figure that the head I would reverse could be the slightly heavier of two skagit heads (one 440g and one 400g).  By reversing the 440 and using only the rear 1/3 of it I could get a more weight forward profile.  I could approximate the Permit line by doing so, but it could be as heavy as I want - the two heads uncut weigh 840g. So to get to 630g, I need to remove around 210g, mostly cutting from the front of the 440g one (leaving he heavier rear portion of it) and removing a bit also from the 400g one (leaving most of the slightly lighter front). It won't match the profile of the Rio permit line exactly, but it will be weight forward and have a short front and rear taper.  Both ends will have the original loops so just need to connect the halves.

Edited by Killiefish
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Should also mention that the intermediate Skagits I am thinking of using are not as bulky or as blunt as a typical floating Skagit head.  I have not been able to determine their exact profile with a micrometer (yet) and Sci Anglers doesn't show it as any different from the floater but they are noticeably less fat and bulky for the same weight head.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Of course they are less bulky since they are denser.

 

I guess SA Freightliner intermediates are the blanks thought for this.

If you want ~630gr with a ~50' head for headwind/strong but not overly kicking turnover I would:

I'd buy one intermediate skagit head and one intermediate scandi type head do something like this. The reel end on the bottom is on the left.

 

 

TH_OH_line.png

Edited by sms
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That's a decent option, mostly for floating.  Intermediate is the issue.  There are some intermediate scandi heads available now (Scientific Anglers UST has some - very hard to find - ones in straight intermediate, but the majority are in variable density and that won't work properly re: sink rate if reversed).  Also, as I said, I am not sure that the profiles of the intermediate Skagits are as shown in the diagrams.  They (esp. the Freightliners which are tweaked from earlier int. Skagits) are more like a cross between skagit and scandi, so that's why I think I would just use two of them, with one being a lower weight class.  They are full intermediate, not variable density so can be reversed. Also they are cheaper than the UST intermediates by around $25 to $30 each.  And they are the right length (chopped and combined they can make a head that is 30-38ft).  I don't want a 50ft head.  My rod is shorter - 11ft - and prefers 33ft to 35ft heads.  I just can't find one heavy enough because the rod is a beast.  I am not trying to achieve a long head.  If I were, I would probably use the method you diagram above, and stick with floating.  But thanks for the ideas.  All good stuff.  Someone else can try that for an out front rod that needs more grains and a longer head.

 

Edited by Killiefish
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On 12/20/2020 at 10:48 AM, Killiefish said:

So far the best results have been with a head/tip that come in at 33ft and around 625g.  So, 480g skagit @23ft and 10ft 140g tip (Medium iMow). 


Since you are considering two skagit heads combined, have you first tried reversing the skagit head you already have, then attaching the 10’ tip?   This just to give an idea if that sort of taper profile is headed in the direction you want.  
 

My main single-hand 9wt overhead intermediate head has a taper kinda like this. It is a Cortland WF12I clearcamo line cut to head (350 grains over 30’), not reversed.  It has a modest mini-WF taper that keeps more mass towards the middle-front.
 

 

2CFC73CF-5313-439D-9EBA-ED38E9BCA71F.png

Edited by SSPey
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9 hours ago, SSPey said:


Since you are considering two skagit heads combined, have you first tried reversing the skagit head you already have, then attaching the 10’ tip?   This just to give an idea if that sort of taper profile is headed in the direction you want.  
 

My main single-hand 9wt overhead intermediate head has a taper kinda like this. It is a Cortland WF12I clearcamo line cut to head (350 grains over 30’), not reversed.  It has a modest mini-WF taper that keeps more mass towards the middle-front.
 

 

Yes, this is one solution.  I have indeed been trying that approach first. The reversed head needs a heavy tip, and also some added back taper because the skagit front (now rear) is still too abrupt.  I am trying it with a 440g skagit, 22ft long, specifically a Sci Anglers Third Coast Int Skagit attached to a  10ft 140g iMow medium tip, connect both to a running line made from an old junker intermediate weight forward line with most of the front head cut off and looped, so that ~ 3 feet of the former intermediate head are added to the rear.   35ft (including tip) and around 600g.  A bit longer and a bit lighter than planned but real close (~33ft and ~630g was my original target).

Edited by Killiefish
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Ok, I went to the storage and got my lines out. Since you are targeting about 630gr@33ft I thought that basically 550gr Vision Ace Skagit Intermediate might be a good starting point as it is ~25ft which leaves 8ft for the front. Dug out one of my 15' intermediate tips (Vision Ace Intermediate I think) to check.

 

So, reversed skagit head and then added tip (not all the way to its tip) looks like this (blue is left axis and red right):

5ff6252bf15f4_TH_OH_skagitrevtipcut.PNG.f9932975d9b8761be88a86256da8f0b4.PNG

 

660gr at the 35.1ft I measured on a scale. To verify the formula I also separately measured the skagit head. Formula gives 559gr and I measured 558gr. So quite accurate (means that the core is close to the density of the coating and the densities of the skagit head and the tip are about the same). With this it would be about 645gr cut at 33ft.

The thing is that there is probably too much difference from 23ft to 25,1ft (where the tip starts). That area is highlighted above. So the line would probably kick a lot when hitting that spot.

 

I would probably try to buy a "spey" head to acompany the skagit. They used to be single density. I believe you can find these if you post WTB in the SP forum - the one that deals with spey stuff and I is replaced with **** if I write it here. They should not cost too much either. Just make sure you get heavy enough a line so that you have enough diameters to play with. If I were to build a line about 630gr and that short, I would probably build something like below (cutting part of the original rear off the skagit and then attaching three cut pieces of the spey head to create a stepped front taper). The steps (cut&splice) are highlighted. Propably not very nice, but much more civilized than the above. Still powerful enough to go into the wind and turn over taking the fly with it.

5ff62533e4cc3_TH_OH_skagitrevheadcut.PNG.ba79a0edcb4b888ebe5cc8c41c0dcc58.PNG

 

I checked what would happen with a 500gr skagit and it would cause even more abrupt front taper need for the target weight & length.

Front weighted head for this length and weight is not going to be anything finesse, it is going to turn over like a hammer.

 

Edited by sms
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