Ajefferslyon

Two hand fly lines for the salt

Rate this topic

89 posts in this topic

I am now fishing my 10wt Exocett Surf in the back with a 300gr Wulff Ambush Short floating line w. 15ft head and I dial in depth with a 110gr 12ft floating tip and mono leader up top down to the 132gr T-11 12 ft bucket sink tip from OPST with floro leader. I also carry a full sink line on an extra spool that is frankly too heavy for this rod at 500gr Rio Leviathan. I like the quick change with the tips as my tide stages progress I have not had coiling issues with Wulff lines down to water temps sub-50deg in March on Long Island. 

 

hat-tip to @The Graveyard Shift for his posts and direct advice on these rods.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2020 at 8:23 PM, SSPey said:

Why do these have to be integrated?  Honest question.  Is not some thread and aquaseal good enough for smoothing out the bumps while also serving as a head indicator?  This lets you choose your favored shooting line, too.  

 

I agree.  I haven't read this entire thread yet so maybe this was already posted, but one reason to NOT use an integrated line is our pocketbooks. It's cheaper to chop a running line from an old fly line in your closet, find then right head on sale at Sierra Trading post, and add a tip of T8 or whatever you like. (and it's fun to tinker in the garage, ain't it?) This is what I did, with the help of @Killiefish who owns the same rod as I do. I will admit--once I get the line dialed in, if I'm stoked and I use it alot... an integrated line would be a nice option to have! This is a great thread, BTW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/15/2020 at 10:04 AM, HillTop said:

An option if you want a floater but many of us prefer an intermediate.

HT

and on the West Coast, we use 3-7 IPS full sink lines in the surf.  Wulff doesn't make a TT line that sinks? I'm surprised at that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2020 at 7:36 AM, FishHawk II said:

I think the angler from Maine name is Allen. He uses a spey rod with 30' of T14 and T17 and can cast rather far with that setup. Hopefully you guys will see him in Action. He comes to the Cape and fishes where we all fish (you know the spot).  That's the set up I'm going to try next season. I over hand with my single handed T&T Vector and do ok with it. But I'm going to try Allen's set up and see how I do. 

I hope to run into you sometimes . FishHawk

One of the most successful striper-on-fly guys out west in Monterey Bay is Ken Oda. He told me he uses level tungsten heads in the surf and I've seen his IG feed--lots of fish. He said he likes a head made of 29' of Cortland LC-13 lead core on his 8w and 9w rods. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2020 at 9:38 AM, HillTop said:

 

Oso,

 

Occasionally log into the Sierra Trading Post website for decent pricing on fly lines.   Can't always find the grain weight you are looking for but if you look often enough you may hit it right.     This is one of the intermediates I purchased there.  400 grain up to 640 grain.

 

HT

skagit.jpg.29ca5f480dfa24501c6e35659aa92d1d.jpg

Thanks for this HT I will check this out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2020 at 5:30 PM, Killiefish said:

These are great heads.  Newbies need to know that you have to add tips to these Skagit heads.  For overhead casting, these plus 10 to 12ft tips that are around 1/4 (0.25x) the weight of the head or even a bit heavier seem to work well.  Can be intermediate tips or sink tips. Make your own tips from old intermediate lines or T material if you want to save some bucks.  YMMV.

Good to know! As you can read from my initial post I was under the impression this would take the place of the tips. Appreciate the feedback 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-10-17 at 9:38 AM, HillTop said:

 

Oso,

 

Occasionally log into the Sierra Trading Post website for decent pricing on fly lines.   Can't always find the grain weight you are looking for but if you look often enough you may hit it right.     This is one of the intermediates I purchased there.  400 grain up to 640 grain.

 

HT

skagit.jpg.29ca5f480dfa24501c6e35659aa92d1d.jpg

Just checked the Scientific Anglers website and the Freightliner heads have been discontinued for 2021 and replaced. The new Skagit heads are touted as improved with a continuous taper from rear to front (the former had a level belly) and run from 420gr (21') to 600gr (23.5').

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 mins ago, Suave said:

Just checked the Scientific Anglers website and the Freightliner heads have been discontinued for 2021 and replaced. The new Skagit heads are touted as improved with a continuous taper from rear to front (the former had a level belly) and run from 420gr (21') to 600gr (23.5').

The short belly of the Freightliner in floating I believe has a more or less level construction, that is true.  But the longer front portion is tapered.  In the Intermediates I think that this might not be true.  In any event the Freigtliners are up to 640g whereas the newer ones only going to 600g is for our purposes a negative.  We are trying to come up with really heavy solutions for very powerful two hand rods.  600g plus a 150g tip does get you to 750g.  But 640 plus 160g tip is 800g total -- and the beastly carp rods some of you folks are using (apparently) need more grainage.

 

Scientific Anglers and other line manufacturers are always tweaking something to sell more lines.  The newer taper on the updated Skagits, IMO, makes them less, rather than more, powerful in terms of the load.  Possibly better for smoothness of delivery, and in fact a continuous taper is more scandi-like than Skagit so fly sizes to be delivered are likely a bit smaller.  Not going to be all that noticeable really esp. at the heavier sizes.

 

Found the diagram for the Freightliner, posted below.  Looking at the newer diagram (can only find a real tiny one on website) for the replacement I can see that there's a difference both in the rear and in the front - they have maybe made the front taper too thin in front in the newer versions of these heads.  If you use the Freightliner with really heavy tips I think the Freightliner is actually the better, ii.e. more powerful, driver not the newer one.  If you want a smoother delivery with flies in more normal size ranges, it might be better to pay more for the newer Skagits which are starting to look more like short heavy Scandi heads.

Freightliner-Skagit-Intermediate-Head-with-Loops-Taper.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Killie

 

I to am wondering about the line matching being used for carp rods . I am in possession of some seriously powerful rods and just don’t fancy hanging 800 grains on them even though some  could eat that load.

If the rod is balanced to 800 grains  or more that’s fine in nice conditions but not I have found in tough ones.

Very heavy lines present their own challenge for if cast well they have a great deal of energy which is great for coping with wind but when things go wrong it can lead to a busted rod or a fly embedded somewhere on your person.

This can mostly but not 100% be  mitigated by ensuring we have a good cast.

If guys are trying out TH made from powerful carp blanks or rods then going slowly and getting a feel for things is a smart thing to do. I wear pretty heavy duty safety specs at night and sunglasses in daylight. Debarbing the hook is also smart. I have had to pull out size 2/0 a view times from the back of my hands and it hurts barbless would not fancy it with a barbed hook.

The Freightliner looks like it has a good profile especially if fast sink tips are used. New is not always better I agree.

 

mike

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Suave said:

Just checked the Scientific Anglers website and the Freightliner heads have been discontinued for 2021 and replaced. The new Skagit heads are touted as improved with a continuous taper from rear to front (the former had a level belly) and run from 420gr (21') to 600gr (23.5').

 

Good to know.   Just logged back in to purchase a few for my new TH build this winter!  They're already almost out of stock.  

 

HT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2020 at 2:03 PM, Ajefferslyon said:

Currently, the best way to get into TH saltwater fishing is to check out the topic: "Two hand rods for the salt" and pick up a Mike Oliver, spey, carp, or (god forbid) a switch rod.  Hopefully the next step is to then check out this new topic "Two hand fly lines for the salt" for info on line selection, customization, tips, taper theories, etc.  (this topic will inevitably have to include casting styles too I think) 

 

I personally went though 20+ different lines over the last 10 years trying to get my G. Loomis 12/13 11'3" to launch 130ft casts like I imagined it would. In this age of information, I couldn't believe that I was forced to figure it out via trial and error – and I'm still figuring it out. 

 

Long story short, I know we will all be better TH fisherman if we share what we know on the lines we use. 

 

Thank you!

First I want to congratulate  Ajefferslyon for open the post. You should open one with short clips only as well Ajefferslyon.

 

I was about to post in the Spey lines for the surf ,from early September and responding to some issues that a member found when casting a Skagit in to the head wind, he wrote a very detailed description on the rig and personal casting  view ...“feels like a shooting head on asteroids in the back cast”
He is right, but his personal observations are based over a lack of technique based from  the casting principles, not much of the theory that I’m sure he knows on “how to cast in to head wind “ with other lines density and heads profiles. 
Obviously, those “asteroids” are always there to be found either in the back cast like the same in the forward  cast, it’s the caster fault not to be able to find them at all times to his own interest, equally if we Spey or overhead casting when in the surf to a head wind, the fly line loop is a  reflection of how the caster understands not only the principles but, after we do all perfect to reach the key point to form the tight loop shape possible , witch it’s over the short phase of the  -speed up and stop-.

My solution to the same issue is, keep same rod tip tension smoothly deeper in the back and forward and when we go back just speed up the casting stroke but do not fully extend the fly line completely, I’m looking just for  for a “J“ shape in both ends and, slightly high rod angle of rod tip transition from the back cast and above water in the forward. If we horse the system we create a jolt in the blank and lose the magic. Hope the TBS clip helps.


Another inconclusive evidence, I keep reading the same personal conclusions about “ surf and Spey doesn’t work well” that’s another symptom that reflect lack of the technique plus few other concepts related to the laws of physics that will solve how to place an anchor in the surf when wading in same conditions the surf allows as to do a overhead cast,  but also how to apply the fly casting principles, my friends, to many words to only open the first “how to”

So my next post will cover that part, or just scroll down over my other clips , it’s already there.


Sorry, no much time to go over few more interesting points of view, over long rods, short rods..., so let me please do the walk by posting few clips here about the Skagit lines and transitions from Spey to overhead, ...oh I know it’s on grass, but it’s also covered on my channel about “surf anchors”

 

I’m not posting much, my apologies, I’m more in to read what others use and how, I like to share my views with actual footage of what works and doesn’t, I should say for me, but all you see is based only on casting principles, where we all are tie to it, there is no magic bullet in the sport, other than finding your time to practice from the principles of fly casting to find the issues and learn how to repeat them at will, that will definitely speed up our learning curve, I should post this on the other post about  “ how often you practice”

 

I was following you guys for days here, and I couldn’t stop reading what you guys are feeding this site here with, so many information about lines and carp set ups combinations. 

Honestly, always inspiring and learning something from everyone here, thank you guys.


Nowadays I’m more on 100% Spey casting in the surf with any fly rod  under 11’ , especially those yard sale dust collectors in 10’and 9’ fly rods that potentially I can modified or convert in to a “short switch fly rod” where a modern short head can be plug in.

 

I believe after over 20 seasons in the water, I know what can keep me longer in the water year round, just having fun catching a fish or two, but especially only the way I want it.

 

Thank you again, hope it helps and it’s always good to be around SOL

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi magyanes

 

Great Post. Where have you been hiding.  You hit on the biggest truth in fly casting and that is practically all problems are down to the Caster when it comes to actually putting our fly line and fly out there.

I suspect many of us have come to TH in the surf straight from a single hand rod experience. The principles of casting a TH is pretty much the same as for a single hand rod.  Without some guidance though  it is very easy to get into very poor form with a TH. I have seen this for myself .

The problems get magnified due to the rod length and increased power  and heavier lines which are very new to any guy just starting out. There is not a lot of help coming from official sources as most casting of long spey rods is about air Bourne and water Bourne anchor casting.

The other factors which we have discussed many times are the different conditions we face as Surf TH fly fishermen compared to rivers.
In terms of rods I guess we will have different views. I have tried Spey rods and they were just not up to the task of fishing on the NE Coast of the USA in pretty tough conditions. Their actions are designed to cast from D loops. They bend more deeply in the lower sections and this I found was not helpful when over head casting. My experience was that we actually require more powerful ,rods than those currently available for spey. Most these days max out at 10 wts.
Spey casting in flat water  or small surf  is of course very doable but it means using a spey rod to do it well and that same rod for me becomes limited to fair conditions as when we get big rolling surf and head winds  it can’t cope well.

It cant be a general purpose TH surf rod. It was never designed to be one.

The kind of surf a number of us on SOL fish is of a size that makes even overhead casting difficult.  Time is often very short to get a cast away before the next wave is upon us. I have tried to set up anchored Spey casts but too often the anchor could not be set properly or just got drowned. Breaking surf is a real pain but part of the fun. We found that the Overhead cast was the most efficient way to get our line and fly out there .

Fishing from rocks and places with no room for a back cast then it has to be spey or nothing. There are Coast lines that demand spey casts.

Carp blanks and rods are a solution to get into TH Out Front  at a lower cost and ones around a 2.75 to 3.0 lb Test curve with a stiff butt and firm middle can handle significant lines 600 grains and up. A good number of carp rod designs  are based around long range casting with heavy leads and these type of blanks suit our needs pretty well.The earlier designs were more through action and do not make good rods for us.

I agree with you that loop control is very important when casting to a head wind and when distance is needed.  A lot of us I believe found / find it difficult to keep the rod on a straight line path. More difficult on a long rod where small movements at the hands make for a large movement at the rod tip.

The tendency is for the upper rod arm to extend too far on the delivery stroke and open up any loop formed.

Its work in progress. Good to have you on board.

Mike

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Magayanes, I'm trying to click on the videos but am getting a message that reads "Video unavailable. This video is private". Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

    Thanks,

           George

Edited by baldwin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Regarding Killiefish's post on needing very heavy shooting heads, it's not that hard really. Who says you need a skagit tip with a Skagit head? The floating head for my 750 grain TH rod consists of two Skagit heads spliced together at the rear after removing their rear tapers. 520 grain and 320, with some of the 520 head cut back to adjust weight. You could easily get past a 1000 grain head doing this, though you might struggle to do it under 42-6' long. Only trouble is these have to have an intermediate portion unless there's a fast sinking Skagit head on the market I'm not aware of.

Edited by RedGreen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to register here in order to participate.

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.