Steve_in_PA

ATF now going after pistol braces

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It appears the ATF is now going after pistol braces after they determined they were allowed on pistols for many years.

They targeted a small gun company with few resources.

Precursor to banning all of them?

And making owners criminals for not getting a tax stamp on the now "SBR"?

Was this done by deep staters to piss off gun owners when Trump needs them most?

(Supposedly the ATF lawyers involved were Obama era people.)

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2 mins ago, nalu22 said:

Q, LLC whom we make parts for recently (this week) got a C&D on their Honey Badger firearm for barrel length.

I have felt for some time that some of the braces introduced recently look quite a bit like skeletonized shoulder butts, especially if they can telescope to provide a rifle LoP. I was not familiar with this model but this seems to be of that class. Outstanding design with its integration into the receiver but....

 

HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-CLOSED.jpg

 

HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-OPEN.jpg

 

FPC Statement on ATF’s Cease and Desist to Q, LLC Regarding the Honey Badger Pistol’s Status as a Purported Short Barrel Rifle

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. (October 6, 2020) — Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) has issued the following statement regarding ATF’s action against Q, LLC’s (Q) Honey Badger Pistol and its status as a purported short barrel rifle:

 

ATF has once again unlawfully and unconstitutionally exceeded its authority and changed the law by issuing a new determination that is devoid of logic and reason, contains no explanation as to the manner in which it arrived at its conclusion, conflicts with its prior determinations, and embodies the very essence of “arbitrary and capricious”. 

 

After examining a sample Q Honey Badger Pistol, the ATF’s Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) concluded that “the objective features of the Honey Badger firearm, configured with the subject stabilizing brace, indicate the firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.” FATD further concluded that it is a SBR as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA) and Gun Control Act (GCA). Yet, ATF does not explain how it arrived at this conclusion other than vague generalizations that the firearm was “designed” to be fired from the shoulder and by virtue of its barrel length meeting the definition of a SBR. 

 

Earlier this summer, regarding the possible action regarding pistol braces,  we said that our “Constitution requires an accountable legislature to enact just laws within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not decreed by nameless bureaucrats with a political agenda, or even a president.” And when the ATF previously reversed a long-standing and well understood position that bump stock-type devices were not machine guns, FPC and Firearms Policy Foundation led the charge with the first lawsuit in the nation against ATF’s unlawful and unconstitutional act.

 

There can be no question that our Constitution requires accountability to coincide with the enactment of laws, and that those laws must be within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not left to bureaucrats who escape all aspects of responsibility. Once more, we remind ATF and the executive branch that their authority has limits and that, if need be, they will once again be reminded of those limits through legal action.

 

FPC believes that the ATF, NFA, GCA, and every other law that threatens the People with disarmament and prison for exercising human rights should be abolished. Our legal team will continue to closely monitor this issue and take whatever action is necessary, possible, and prudent to protect the rights of law-abiding gun owners and our members against abusive government agencies and policies.

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↑ ↑ ~ They are former Sig guys that make some very nice firearms for sure, the Honey Badger was certainly pushing boundaries. ~ ↑ ↑

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1 hour ago, flyangler said:

I have felt for some time that some of the braces introduced recently look quite a bit like skeletonized shoulder butts, especially if they can telescope to provide a rifle LoP. I was not familiar with this model but this seems to be of that class. Outstanding design with its integration into the receiver but....

 

HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-CLOSED.jpg

 

HB-PISTOL-RIGHT-OPEN.jpg

 

FPC Statement on ATF’s Cease and Desist to Q, LLC Regarding the Honey Badger Pistol’s Status as a Purported Short Barrel Rifle

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. (October 6, 2020) — Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) has issued the following statement regarding ATF’s action against Q, LLC’s (Q) Honey Badger Pistol and its status as a purported short barrel rifle:

 

ATF has once again unlawfully and unconstitutionally exceeded its authority and changed the law by issuing a new determination that is devoid of logic and reason, contains no explanation as to the manner in which it arrived at its conclusion, conflicts with its prior determinations, and embodies the very essence of “arbitrary and capricious”. 

 

After examining a sample Q Honey Badger Pistol, the ATF’s Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) concluded that “the objective features of the Honey Badger firearm, configured with the subject stabilizing brace, indicate the firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.” FATD further concluded that it is a SBR as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA) and Gun Control Act (GCA). Yet, ATF does not explain how it arrived at this conclusion other than vague generalizations that the firearm was “designed” to be fired from the shoulder and by virtue of its barrel length meeting the definition of a SBR. 

 

Earlier this summer, regarding the possible action regarding pistol braces,  we said that our “Constitution requires an accountable legislature to enact just laws within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not decreed by nameless bureaucrats with a political agenda, or even a president.” And when the ATF previously reversed a long-standing and well understood position that bump stock-type devices were not machine guns, FPC and Firearms Policy Foundation led the charge with the first lawsuit in the nation against ATF’s unlawful and unconstitutional act.

 

There can be no question that our Constitution requires accountability to coincide with the enactment of laws, and that those laws must be within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not left to bureaucrats who escape all aspects of responsibility. Once more, we remind ATF and the executive branch that their authority has limits and that, if need be, they will once again be reminded of those limits through legal action.

 

FPC believes that the ATF, NFA, GCA, and every other law that threatens the People with disarmament and prison for exercising human rights should be abolished. Our legal team will continue to closely monitor this issue and take whatever action is necessary, possible, and prudent to protect the rights of law-abiding gun owners and our members against abusive government agencies and policies.

Functionally equivalent to other braces on ARs.  I didn't check measurements to see if they exceed common braces.

Complete pistols are in very short supply.

There are some suppliers of uppers that have product in stock in some of the more common setups.

Bear Creek Armory comes to mind.  (I have no association with them other than satisfied customer.)

Lowers can be had but I'm not seeing lowers with braces i stock anyplace I frequent.

Braces by themselves also hard to find.

 

 

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A barrel under 16" has always meant a pistol. Total length over about 27" means a rifle. You cannot have a pistol with rifle length. You cannot have a rifle with a pistol length barrel. The BATFE was perfectly correct in my understanding. There is another potential violation with a pistol length 12 Ga double barrel pistol. It could be made legal by rifling the barrel, but I don't know if it has rifling or not.

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Turns out Donald Jr owns a couple AR pistols and is not happy with the ATF action.

DOJ is involved and putting a hold on all actions for 60 days.  Essentially pushing it past the election.

Trump wins and it goes away.  Biden wins and it's irrelevant as all semi-autos are banned.

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