fishfinder401

Wire vs Ceramic on slatwater fly rods

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So, I have seen this discused in a much older thread, but what is the current though on using wire guides, snake or single foot vs ceramic single foot guides on saltwater fly rods? ( thinking an 8wt bvk)

I heard some say modern cermaics preform better, others dont seem to think so... and if you do like using the ceramics, what size?

 

(I figured since this was fly fishing concentrated the fly forum might be best, but if it should be in rod builduing thats fine) 

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1 min ago, Drew C. said:

Wire is the only way to go.

why is that? i mean besides durability wouldnt there be less friction on the proper ceramic guides? 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Sure wire is light, but there's more to fishing than casting. Your sensitivity in feeling takes is in your line, not your rod. The feeling of a fly line going over a quality ceramic vs a stainless wire is totally different. Ceramics are much smoother and bring your connection to your fly to another level.

 

Weight can be a factor, but titanium framed ceramics are so light the difference is negligible. The enhancement of feel when casting and fishing makes ceramics more than worth it. Fuji's titanium silicon carbide and especially the Torzite guides are excellent. The torzites are the best you'll find from ceramics. Light as air, extremely smooth, and will last your lifetime so long as you don't whack the rod like a ruler on a desk top.

 

Additionally, snake guides wear out. You'll never wear out a ceramic insert. If you only fish a couple times a month, that's not important. But if you fish a lot... You'll see the difference a couple years down the road. I've worn out snakes.

 

They are expensive, but consider this: have you ever found yourself thankful you saved $50-75 on a rod or reel a year or two after you got it? I haven't, that was my biggest indicator that low end gear isn't worth it. Really good gear is a pleasure to fish, and isn't the whole endeavor of sportfishing about enjoying yourself?

 

On all my fly rods now I use only ceramics. I had the same stance you did, then I tried it for myself. Never am I going back to snakes.

 

I will say this though.. in icy weather, double footed snakes are the only way to go. All other times, they're crap compared to ceramics.

 

If Mike Oliver and Danthebassman are around they'll chime in too I hope.

 

Edit: I use size 6 torzites on a 10'6'' 12wt single handed rod, and they work extremely well. Size 7 silicon carbide would be similar. For an 8wt I'd look at size 6 silicon carbide or size 5 torzites.

Edited by RedGreen

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14 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Sure wire is light, but there's more to fishing than casting. Your sensitivity in feeling takes is in your line, not your rod. The feeling of a fly line going over a quality ceramic vs a stainless wire is totally different. Ceramics are much smoother and bring your connection to your fly to another level.

 

Weight can be a factor, but titanium framed ceramics are so light the difference is negligible. The enhancement of feel when casting and fishing makes ceramics more than worth it. Fuji's titanium silicon carbide and especially the Torzite guides are excellent. The torzites are the best you'll find from ceramics. Light as air, extremely smooth, and will last your lifetime so long as you don't whack the rod like a ruler on a desk top.

 

Additionally, snake guides wear out. You'll never wear out a ceramic insert. If you only fish a couple times a month, that's not important. But if you fish a lot... You'll see the difference a couple years down the road. I've worn out snakes.

 

They are expensive, but consider this: have you ever found yourself thankful you saved $50-75 on a rod or reel a year or two after you got it? I haven't, that was my biggest indicator that low end gear isn't worth it. Really good gear is a pleasure to fish, and isn't the whole endeavor of sportfishing about enjoying yourself?

 

On all my fly rods now I use only ceramics. I had the same stance you did, then I tried it for myself. Never am I going back to snakes.

 

I will say this though.. in icy weather, double footed snakes are the only way to go. All other times, they're crap compared to ceramics.

 

If Mike Oliver and Danthebassman are around they'll chime in too I hope.

 

Edit: I use size 6 torzites on a 10'6'' 12wt single handed rod, and they work extremely well. Size 7 silicon carbide would be similar. For an 8wt I'd look at size 6 silicon carbide or size 5 torzites.

those are a lot of good points... as far as weight goes, how much heavier are the non titanium? 

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Just now, fishfinder401 said:

those are a lot of good points... as far as weight goes, how much heavier are the non titanium? 

I don't have numbers, but the difference will be a bit noticeable over the titanium ones I think. They are still workable. Danthebassman has an 8wt with steel alconites on it that he loves. 

 

Yes they're expensive, but titanium is by far the best option. 

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8 mins ago, RedGreen said:

I don't have numbers, but the difference will be a bit noticeable over the titanium ones I think. They are still workable. Danthebassman has an 8wt with steel alconites on it that he loves. 

 

Yes they're expensive, but titanium is by far the best option. 

ok, ill take a look at them, any recomendations for the stripper guides?

Edited by fishfinder401

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10 mins ago, fishfinder401 said:

ok, ill take a look at them, any recomendations for the stripper guides?

Most fly rods use double footed stripper guides, even a second or some a third double foot, but none of this is necessary. Standard spinning single foot guides are more than enough. These first 2-3 guides can be steel framed as their weight is of little effect to the rod as a whole. 

 

My 12wt goes 20-12-8-6-6-6-....6 tip top. All single foot guides. Fuji KL's. 

 

For your 8wt you can go with a 16. The size of your stripper isn't a huge deal. 20 will get you no better performance than a 16. 

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4 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Most fly rods use double footed stripper guides, even a second or some a third double foot, but none of this is necessary. Standard spinning single foot guides are more than enough. These first 2-3 guides can be steel framed as their weight is of little effect to the rod as a whole. 

 

My 12wt goes 20-12-8-6-6-6-....6 tip top. All single foot guides. Fuji KL's. 

 

For your 8wt you can go with a 16. The size of your stripper isn't a huge deal. 20 will get you no better performance than a 16. 

great to know, ill price that out and see how it is. any tip recomendations?

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26 mins ago, fishfinder401 said:

great to know, ill price that out and see how it is. any tip recomendations?

I like the arowana tip tops as well as the LG (I think) micro tops. 

 

In case you don't have your blank yet, don't order any guides until you have it. Manufacturer's specs for tip size are often not what they say, so wait until you've measured your blank yourself to buy guides. 

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Try both, report back with results. 

 

I just finished a 9' 10wt. built for two hands. New old Batson stock. Kw 16, 12, sz. 3 snakes to the tip. Way more fun than I ever imagined, gets grabbed before the CTS now.

 

I like snakes if I'm beating through brush to get to spots. Single foot wire on light rods for weight saving reasons.

 

Ceramic inserts for gear rods.

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36 mins ago, Branches said:

Try both, report back with results. 

 

I just finished a 9' 10wt. built for two hands. New old Batson stock. Kw 16, 12, sz. 3 snakes to the tip. Way more fun than I ever imagined, gets grabbed before the CTS now.

 

I like snakes if I'm beating through brush to get to spots. Single foot wire on light rods for weight saving reasons.

 

Ceramic inserts for gear rods.

haha i wish i could try both but dont have the funds to build 2 set ups right now. i plan to mostly use on beaches and my kayak, so no bushwacking 

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I've been using single foot spinning guides on my fly rods since I started building them 25 or so years ago.  I get some strange looks on trout streams.   I'm getting ready to strip the snake guides off an old 6 wgt rod I brought my nephew many years ago.  I'm replacing them with single foot Fuji SIC guides.  The guide progression is 16(DF stripper guide), 12, 10 and 8. Tip has a size 8 ring.   Just checked my 8 wgts.  Two stripper guides, probably size 20 and 16, 12, 10 and 8.  Tip ring size is 8.  I'm not very good with a double haul, but I find that with the single foots it makes it easier for me to shoot line.  The other advantage is if I break a couple of inches off the tip which I've done two or three times over the years it's a lot easier to convert them to spinning rods.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

i got me a tfo tircx 10wt, killer heavy duty rod for big stripers and blues.  the bottom three guides are ceramic large diameter guides, so large that the rod wont fit into my travel case which is a problem for me,

 

i dont have enough knowledge of rod dynamics to speak of the benefits of those strippers guides, but this rod has serious lifting power

Edited by ferret

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