stormy monday

Forhan wrap for single foot wire guides?

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I'm building an inexpensive 10 weight up, mostly experimenting. In the past I've always used Fuji SICs or PacBay Minimas for guides and used a Forhan wrap to lock them in, but this time I'm using the single foot wire guides. These guides sit a lot lower on the blank, and I'm not sure the Forhan in this case is desirable or even feasible - has anyone used this combination and what was the result? Thanks!

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I’ve never used a foreskin wrap on any single foot guide and I’ve never had an issue. 
 

it’s a solution to a problem that really isn’t a problem. 

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i agree with Drew - I have used the Forhan lock for 15 years - but lately have omitted it entirely.

When you fill the (small) tunnels on the runners you will be leaving a small blob of finish.  That alone will prevent the guide from coming loose.

I stopped using it because it becomes a PITA when applying thread epoxy.

Herb

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Another rodbuilding solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Having said that, if you have had guides pull out and feel this will hold them in place better...first hand experience - then by all means. IF there is no room to put it on those low frame SF's then don't worry about it.

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Billy

 

It does exist but it is not a big deal. I have had three SL guides pull out over a ten year period. Mine on extremely powerful Two  Hand Surf fly rods. They were torn out by a cast that went wrong in a blustery wind. I would rather have the guide pull out in that situation.

 

I did use it for a while but stopped as it was not worth the extra time.

 

Mike

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Thanks all! I have used them on SICs and PacBay Minimas, honestly the only ones I've ever had pull out were due to my own carelessness in handling/transporting. Applying epoxy was a pain, I usually would apply under/in front with a bodkin, then with brush. It's kind of like when I came to the realization I was struggling with single inlaid threads then realized I've gotten so damned blind I couldn't see them after I was done anyways! Simplify, simplify, simplify!

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Learn something new every day.   Did a quick search on this method hoping to increase my knowledge and found this from days gone by:

HT

==================================================

 

The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Mike Oliver 

Date: April 10, 2004 07:21PM

 

This is a quick thank you to Mr Rich Forhan for sharing details and how to do his single leg locking wrap which is in the library above.
I tried it out on a 10 wt fly blank today and thanks to the very clear instructions it was only necassary to do one practice guide on a piece of scrap blank.
If you build using single leg guides and are concerned about their secuity to the rod shaft try Mr Forhan's wrap it is a doddle to do.

Thank you Rich.


Regards Mike Oliver

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Brian Thompson 

Date: April 10, 2004 07:31PM

 

I got it from the pages of Rodmaker some time back and did not know it had been put in the library here. Good info.

Options: Reply•Quote

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Emory Harry (---.client.comcast.net)

Date: April 10, 2004 10:23PM

 

Mike, Brian,
How do you reposition the guides to straighten them after you have wrapped them using a locking wrap? I sometimes use safety wraps on single footed guides but do not use the locking wraps because I can not not move them to allign them without using excessive force.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Mike Oliver 

Date: April 11, 2004 05:40AM

 

Emory,

That's a good question. You can't straighten the guide in the event that it moves whilst wrapping. This thought came to me straight way whilst doing the first ever.

Ok I don't think my standard wrapping process is typical in that I do not tape all my guides on roughly in line, wrap them and final adjust them. I tape my first guide (no other guides attached to rod shaft) The one nearest to the tip top. and tip top is not fitted. This allows me to check for spine my way.
I wrap the first leg of a two footed guide and then check that the guide is lined up either with the spine or prefered curve. I make any necassary adjustments, I then work down the rod taping one guide at a time and wrapping just the one leg. I check each guide for alignment to the others previously wrapped and alignment marks put onto the blank by a white greese pencil, to ensure I stay true to the spine etc.
When I have done I simply turn rod around in my wrapping Jig and do the other feet.
So for me normally I am checking alignment continually, so It's not such a big deal if I do go out with the Forhan lock, I know in advance if I don't tape carefully and wrap judisiously I am going to have to re-do the wrap.
In my view the potential advantages of the locking wrap and having to re-do the odd one outway the down side of the potential for extra work.
Now as I said in my post this is the first time I have used this lock. Because I was aware of the alignment problem I was careful and got lucky I only had to re-do one guide.

Emory I would be very interested please in learning about your locking wrap to if you felt that you were comfortable in posting the information via the forum.

I have to admit that using SG guides that I could not achieve on every guide the high level of packing that Rich shows in his instructions, I hope to get better with some more practice. In terms of time it only added about two or three minutes tops to each wrap. Its fun to do to.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Mike Oliver (

Date: April 11, 2004 05:45AM

 

Emory,
Hit wrong button again ,post, posted before I had finished.
I would be interested as I feel many may be in this whole subject of locking techniques and their relative efficiency to each other and to the actaul design intent.


Thanks for raising the issue.

Regards Mike Oliver

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Tom Kirkman 

Date: April 11, 2004 09:05AM

 

Like Mike, I tend to check the alignment when the guide is about 1/2 to 2/3rds wrapped. Leaving the rod in the lathe, I sight down from the. Far easier to get it correct at that point than after it's wrapped, Forhan wrap or not.

............

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Emory Harry 

Date: April 11, 2004 09:16AM

 

Mike,
I may be a little anal about the allignment of guides but I do not use the locking wrap on single footed guides because of this problem. I have looked at the guide allignment on a number of rods built by other people that have used the locking wrap and the allignment of the guides was not straight enough to satisfy me.
I usually allign all of the guides after they are wrapped and then check them again carefully just before I apply the epoxy to the guides.
On single footed guides I simply wrap a few wraps on the rod beyond the guide foot and then push these wraps up tight against the guide foot.
When alligning spinning or fly guides I allign them so that they are straight relative to each other. However, when alligning guides that are on top of the rod, normal casting guides, I allign them relative to the blank. If the blank has a little curvature then the guides will have a little curvature. In other words the guides mounted on top of a rod will be directly on top of the rod and will not necessarily look straight relative to each other. I tell myself, and I may be full of prunes, that this will tend to reduce torque when the rod is flexed.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Wylie Wiggins 

Date: April 11, 2004 10:23AM

 

Although the alignment of the guides looks to be an issue with the Forhan Locking guide wrap, I really like the way it looks as it should inhance the strength and longevity of a single foot build.

Thanks to Mr.J.AkuHed I now understand how this wrap is done and plan to use it in the future.
Here is a link to a post 

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Stan Grace 

Date: April 11, 2004 11:24AM

 

I use single foot guides almost exclusively and use the Forehan Wrap on all. To reduce the alignment problems I have learned to position the guides using Flexcoat guide wrapping adhesive first. Once this is accomplished I proceed with the wraps, checking alignment when 1/2 of the foot is wrapped as Tom suggests. While it is easier to make alignment correction at this point I seldom find it necessary if I have glued the guides properly to begin with. The secret to this is practice. Once you have an idea of how much heat need be applied to the guide foot to obtain the ideal coat of adhesive and have developed a system to apply the guides to the blank where you want them you can resolve your alignment concerns at this time. Minor guide alignment is still possible after the guide adhesive and the Forehan Wrap are in place if you warm the wrap slightly to soften the adhesive.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Mike Oliver 

Date: April 11, 2004 03:13PM

 

Emory,

I would have to challenge you on your self depricating statement that you are even remotely anal even with regard to guide alignment. I read your posts regarding resonant frequency, plus many others.

Ok I take you point about other builders alignment not being up to scratch when thay have used the Forhan Wrap. Now this could just have been because they were so used to aligning in the normal way, post wrapping that they just did not take enough care to line each guide up with the preceeding one.

There is no magic just a determination to get the alignment bang on while the guide is held onto the blank by very thin lengths of masking tape and this is I believe the key to my success with alignment.

My method is as follows;-

I cut a thin strip of quality masking tape about three thirty seconds of an inch wide, and around 4 inches long. I put the single leg ring into position and start the tape near to the leg and wind right down with overlapping turns almost to the toe. This does two things, one it anchors the guide in position and two as I start to wrap up off the blank onto the toe of the ring it keeps the ring from moving from side to side and also stops the ring from moving up the blank away from the thread. This problem is much worse on fine diameter blanks when even thin strips of overlocking tape fail to anchor the guide properly.
Now as I wrap up the guide foot, with my left hand I peel away some of the tape exposing more of the guide foot. I continue like this until I reach half way up the foot, when I can normally take off the rest of the tape and wrap as normal.

Now If I do see the guide move left or right, I kill the wrap and realign and start again. Now bearing in mind yesterday was my first attempt at this wrap I only had one guide go wrong and that had to be re-done. I say this not because I am some smart assed wrapper but to show that this is not a difficult wrap to achieve at all.

I guess I have an advantage in that I have always adopted this thin spiral of overlapping tape to secure single or two footed guides to the blank prior to wrapping. A little tip is that whilst adjusting the guide for position the tape does not come over the end of the toe. Why? because it's easier to position the guide like that. What locks it in place, this is for two foot wrapping is the turn that nips over the very end of the toe.

I have found that wide tape taken just once or even two times around the guide foot and the balnk is not very effective.

Sorry to be so long winded. I could demonstrate in about two minutes.

Emory I refuse to believe that builder with your knowledge cannot get the hang of this wrap.

Now to where I am struggling big time and that is with the finishing. I gave the size "A" wraps a wetting coat with my usual polyurethene varnish (ncp threads used) and 12 hours later applied high build to the wraps with a std high build finish.
Everything looked great up to one hour into the drying time when I noticed that the epoxy had pulled back off the Forhan part 0f the wrap. Mostly it had scalped off from around the sides. I think it was due to the @#$%& effect from the tunnels. Can you throw some light on that and how I can avoid it in future please. I am going to have to re-visit the problem tomorrow and try and patch in some extra high build. Any ideas.

What I should not have done of course was to build onto a very expensive blank whilst learning a new skill and I have paid the price for my arrogance.


Hope this will encourage you to re think your view on this Wrap Emory.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Emory Harry 

Date: April 11, 2004 07:23PM

 

Mike,
I will give your approach with masking tape a try to see how it works. It sounds like a good idea.

As far as your problem with epoxy is concerned I can tell you how I deal with the problem that you are having and I also have sometimes. I almost never use CPand almost always use a single coat of Flex Coat. I have used the Flex Coat for many years and know how to deal with it. When the epoxy pulls away from part of the wrap I will heat it lightly with a Bubble Buster alcohol torch and just move it back where I want it. Usually this is all that is required. Often I can see after a few minutes that I have not used enough epoxy, often around the tunnels, I will wait about 30 to 45 minutes until the epoxy is starting to get thick, put the tip of the applicator into the epoxy and then slowly pull it out of the epoxy drawing out a long string of epoxy, and move this string over to the rod while it is turning on the dryer and just let the dryer wrap it on. I then usually again heat it a little to get it to flow. Using this technique I can get exactly the amount of epoxy that I want and can put it exactly where I want it. It may sound difficult but if you try it I think that you will see that it is really very easy to do.
I think that Tom mentioned something a week or so ago about him using this technique to apply the epoxy to the ends of the wraps which I do not do but it sounds like a good idea.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Emory Harry 

Date: April 11, 2004 07:36PM

 

Mike,
I forgot to answer your question about the locking wrap. All I do, and it is certainly not my idea, I think that many people do this, is after you have wrapped all of the way up the guide foot to where you want to end your wrap just continue to wrap on the other side of the guide frame for about 5 wraps. This naturally only works on single footed guides. After you have wrapped these additional 5 or 6 wraps and have pulled the end under then you just push these additional wraps up tight against the guide frame and tight against the other wraps. These wraps will give the guide some additional protection against being pulled out after you have applied your epoxy, though not as much as locking wraps. There is a small additional advantage and that is that you can cut off your tag ends so that they are positioned under the guide frame and will not show. There is also a small dissadvantage and that is that more epoxy tends to want to accumulate under the guide foot when you do this. I deal with this problem by simply waiting for 30 to 45 minutes and then I remove the excess epoxy with a tooth pick.
Hope that this answers your questions.

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Doug Moore 

Date: April 11, 2004 09:31PM

 

Hum! Guess I'm so new to the craft, I was not aware there was this much difficulty with the Foran Locking Wrap. Have done 2 spinning rods and one bait caster, all with the Locking Wrap and have not had any problems outside of my usual screw ups.

Now that I've read this, I'll probably never get another single foot guide straight again! LOL

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Rich Forhan (

Date: April 12, 2004 01:38AM

 

It should be self evident. If you're having difficulty moving guides after using my locking wrap - USE LESS THREAD TENSION! It is a simple matter to align the guides - wrap them with the locking wrap and then adjust any that have moved slightly and achieve perfect alignment.

Using my locking wrap is what the best custom rods are about - bulletproof improvements that set them well above those that don't.

Quantum now uses my locking wrap on their PT series of rods - they are the first factory rods to use it as a soution to a problem (Fuji Alconite SF guides coming out from under the wrap).

 

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Tom Kirkman (

Date: April 12, 2004 09:01AM

 

I hope they're advertising this wrap as The Forhan Locking Wrap. It would be a good sales pitch for them along with some deserved acclaim for your innovation.

For many years I made my security wraps just like Emory does his. I still make a lot of them that way and also deal with the epoxy exactly in the manner he describes above. It's a good wrap and is far more secure than just wrapping up the foot and stopping short of the guide leg as we do with most other wraps. In all those years that type security wrap has served me very well with only a few incidents that caused a guide to move or release from the wrap. I think it should be considered the minimum requirement for any single foot guide wrap.

The Forhan wrap goes one better and was originally designed, I believe, to keep guys from tearing out their guides when the were retrieving their rods out of their boat rod boxes and happened to catch a guide on the box lid opening. Because they're easy to do and provide even greater security, they take us one another step farther with regards to single foot guide security.

...........

Re: The Forhan Locking Wrap

Posted by: Mike Oliver (

Date: April 12, 2004 06:06PM

 

Thanks to everyone who responded to my post which origionally only started out to thank Rich and to encourage everyone whatever their rod building experience to try out this excellent locking wrap devised by Rich Forhan.

It really is so easy to do. You owe it to your rod, yourself , your customers and Rich to give it a go.

Happy wrapping or as we say this side of the pond happy tieing.


Mike Oliver
Edited by TimS
links, email addresses and IP addresses removed

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The Forhan wrap was designed for tournament bass anglers, an anxious and hurried bunch, if the rod is tangled, or hung up in the rod locker, it just means you haven't pulled hard enough. 

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HT

 

Funny how time and experience can alter your opinion.

 

In fact it is not difficult to adjust a single leg guide that has been tied and finished with a Forhan  lock.

 

I do not use it any more. Better for a guide to pull out than the forces be acting onto the blank often a thin walled fly blank.

Some guys put about six wraps of thread in front of the guide. That is a waste of space to. If the guide wants to come out it just climbs over the top.

The high build does not cement it to the blank either. If it did it would not pull out. When you remove a guide often there is no epoxy on top of the guide foot.

Filling the tunnels makes little difference either.

 

Mike

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In my opinion - CP is the worst thing one can apply to rod wraps unless one keeps the rod mounted on the wall as decoration and looks at it instead of fishing with it.

Hetrb

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