weekendwarrior

Will New Regs Be Enough?

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7 hours ago, marcq said:

Just shut down all forms of fishing one bays and estuaries until the beginning of May. Let the bass spawn without angling pressure. Commercial and recreation. 

We are literally doing what we did to the weakfish. It’s been years and they still haven’t rebounded. 

The reality is the bio mass of spawning fish is between 28 and 35 inches. Now we are gonna to specifically target them. Makes no sense.  

You do realize a shut down will never happen right? The people in charge do not care about the biomass, they only cater to what the states want to do with very light emphasis placed on conservation. 

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On 10/29/2019 at 3:02 PM, Scallywag said:

I'm not sure how it works but I do know that they take consideration in class/age. Basically not wanting to put too much pressure on any particular class of fish. 

 

As for not taking bass in spring, Im ok with that as long as they still allow the fishing of striped bass. Meaning, you can target the species but not harvest. Spring time has been a better season than fall for me and most anglers. 

I agree 100%.  Spring is much better for me usually.  I have no qualms with being forced to release fish.  Not letting us fish is a total other issue, though.  

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Sciencedaily article on marine species in general - "Contrary to prevailing dogma, plus-sized female fish invest disproportionately more in making eggs than smaller females. Therefore, taking a single big fish has a bigger impact on the fish population than taking multiple small ones".... So if allowed to take fish, the slot makes a lot of sense and limit it to one.... and also screw the bonus fish BS... that's looking like a loophole for the party boats... 

 

The last thing we should be taking are the larger fish... (and the smaller ones taste better anyway... and less toxins...) 

 

for the nerds...

"An estimate of mass scaling of fecundity in the commercially important Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua) illustrates these scaling effects. If fecundity scaled isometrically with mass, then 15 2-kg female cod would produce the same number of eggs as 1 30-kg female. Instead, we find that a single 30-kg female produces more eggs than ~28 2-kg females (weighing a total of 56 kg). Further, because egg volume and egg energy content also increase with female size, a 30-kg female actually spawns a batch of eggs with a total energy content ~37 times as high as that of a batch of eggs from a single 2-kg female.."

 

F1.medium.gif

 

so... ironically maybe... but a googan taking a few dinks every time he fishes may be doing a lot less damage than the sharpie that takes a 43" fish.

Edited by IrishMist

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11 hours ago, IrishMist said:

Sciencedaily article on marine species in general - "Contrary to prevailing dogma, plus-sized female fish invest disproportionately more in making eggs than smaller females. Therefore, taking a single big fish has a bigger impact on the fish population than taking multiple small ones".... So if allowed to take fish, the slot makes a lot of sense and limit it to one.... and also screw the bonus fish BS... that's looking like a loophole for the party boats... 

 

The last thing we should be taking are the larger fish... (and the smaller ones taste better anyway... and less toxins...) 

 

for the nerds...

"An estimate of mass scaling of fecundity in the commercially important Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua) illustrates these scaling effects. If fecundity scaled isometrically with mass, then 15 2-kg female cod would produce the same number of eggs as 1 30-kg female. Instead, we find that a single 30-kg female produces more eggs than ~28 2-kg females (weighing a total of 56 kg). Further, because egg volume and egg energy content also increase with female size, a 30-kg female actually spawns a batch of eggs with a total energy content ~37 times as high as that of a batch of eggs from a single 2-kg female.."

 

F1.medium.gif

 

so... ironically maybe... but a googan taking a few dinks every time he fishes may be doing a lot less damage than the sharpie that takes a 43" fish.

 

Waiting to see if people are going to pile and and shake their head at how anyone could possibly think that way........................

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On 11/6/2019 at 6:35 AM, linesiderdemdnj said:

Wel that’s exactly what happens here - 40 inchers are caught occasionally in August. I know resident is a bad term to use but that’s exactly what the deal is. 

I tag most of my bass. I may keep 3-4 a year at most, and usually those are 28 to about 30-31”. I started tagging for a few reasons, and was drawn to it by a mentor who is a master tagger for ALS. Anyway, I often wondered whether the bass I catch where I catch them stay “resident”. While I just started tagging about 5 years ago, I have had 2 answers to my question. One fish 26” caught in November 2017 was caught again in May 2019 in Southold NY at 31”. Another fish I tagged a few days later was 25” and recaught in June 2018 off Nantucket On the rose and crown shoal and while the tag was kept, the fish was released, maybe it was still under limit.

now these are only 2 examples, but both fish were first caught 3 days apart. My mentor tells me that these fish will return to the location where I caught/tagged them to spawn.

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On 11/10/2019 at 10:07 AM, IrishMist said:

Sciencedaily article on marine species in general - "Contrary to prevailing dogma, plus-sized female fish invest disproportionately more in making eggs than smaller females. Therefore, taking a single big fish has a bigger impact on the fish population than taking multiple small ones".... So if allowed to take fish, the slot makes a lot of sense and limit it to one.... and also screw the bonus fish BS... that's looking like a loophole for the party boats... 

 

The last thing we should be taking are the larger fish... (and the smaller ones taste better anyway... and less toxins...) 

 

for the nerds...

"An estimate of mass scaling of fecundity in the commercially important Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua) illustrates these scaling effects. If fecundity scaled isometrically with mass, then 15 2-kg female cod would produce the same number of eggs as 1 30-kg female. Instead, we find that a single 30-kg female produces more eggs than ~28 2-kg females (weighing a total of 56 kg). Further, because egg volume and egg energy content also increase with female size, a 30-kg female actually spawns a batch of eggs with a total energy content ~37 times as high as that of a batch of eggs from a single 2-kg female.."

 

F1.medium.gif

 

so... ironically maybe... but a googan taking a few dinks every time he fishes may be doing a lot less damage than the sharpie that takes a 43" fish.

This is the best I could do regarding fish size and egg production ( https://www.mass.gov/service-details/learn-about-striped-bass ) :

 

Females grow larger than males and most stripers over 30 pounds are female. The number of eggs produced by a female striped bass is directly related to the size of its body; a 12-pound female may produce about 850,000 eggs, and a 55-pound female about 4,200,000 eggs. Males are able to spawn starting when they are two or three years of age, but females do not begin to spawn until they are at least five or six years of age. Stripers reproduced in rivers and the brackish areas of estuaries. Spawning occurs from the spring to early summer, with the greatest activity occurring when the water warms to about 65 degrees F. The eggs drift in currents until they hatch 1 ½ to 3 days after being fertilized. Because newly hatched larvae are nearly helpless; striped bass suffer their highest rate of natural mortality during the several weeks after hatching.

 

There have been confirmed male bass caught that were 45+ pounds, but they are, supposedly, outliers.

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I see people dislike the slot limit because it won't work. Well, I don't understand this. It can't hurt, as fish over 35" can't be taken and you can only take one fish home now. It's definitely something, it definitely is an improvement over the current situation. If you want to make an argument that more needs to happen, I could understand that. But at least something is happening

 

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Here is one perspective on why a slot is bad for the fishery.

 

It’s pretty clear to me that a slot limit, at least on its own, won’t. Generally, slot limits increase fishing mortality; they don’t decrease it. That’s because smaller fish are of course dumber, easier to find and easier to catch. If you allow people to kill smaller fish, then fishing mortality goes up. That’s just common sense. It’s also pretty darn obvious, to me anyway, that those big fish we all seem to want to protect won’t get to be big fish if we focus mortality on the younger, smaller fish. I’m not sure why, but very few people seem to be willing to acknowledge that you don’t get big breeders to protect if you kill them off young.

Perhaps the larger issue is that you end up killing a lot of fish that have yet to spawn with a small slot. The current 28 inch coastal size limit theoretically allows around 50 percent of the fish to spawn before reaching keeper size. You don’t get to 100 percent until you’re in the 34-36 inch range (which is just one of the reasons why I believe having a larger size limit would do much more for the striped bass stock than a slot limit).That’s fisheries management 101. Let ’em spawn at least once before we have at ’em.

Another important consideration is that a slot limit would absolutely focus mortality on some very specific year-classes. In the case of striped bass, we’ve got a lot of weak year-classes coming along the pike. Do we really want to throw most of the fishing mortality on those substandard year classes? That sort of focused effort could diminish an already weak age-class, and, given the current pressure (everyone and their mother these days is a striped bass angler), it’s not unreasonable to assume that a good portion of those fish would be gone before reaching spawning age. An appropriate size limit allows you to spread mortality out over a much broader swath of the population. That makes sense to me, because from a biological perspective what you want really is diversity, or, in other words, a good stratification or a lot of different year-classes.

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57 mins ago, 27conch said:

Here is one perspective on why a slot is bad for the fishery.

 

It’s pretty clear to me that a slot limit, at least on its own, won’t. Generally, slot limits increase fishing mortality; they don’t decrease it. That’s because smaller fish are of course dumber, easier to find and easier to catch. If you allow people to kill smaller fish, then fishing mortality goes up. That’s just common sense. It’s also pretty darn obvious, to me anyway, that those big fish we all seem to want to protect won’t get to be big fish if we focus mortality on the younger, smaller fish. I’m not sure why, but very few people seem to be willing to acknowledge that you don’t get big breeders to protect if you kill them off young.

Perhaps the larger issue is that you end up killing a lot of fish that have yet to spawn with a small slot. The current 28 inch coastal size limit theoretically allows around 50 percent of the fish to spawn before reaching keeper size. You don’t get to 100 percent until you’re in the 34-36 inch range (which is just one of the reasons why I believe having a larger size limit would do much more for the striped bass stock than a slot limit).That’s fisheries management 101. Let ’em spawn at least once before we have at ’em.

Another important consideration is that a slot limit would absolutely focus mortality on some very specific year-classes. In the case of striped bass, we’ve got a lot of weak year-classes coming along the pike. Do we really want to throw most of the fishing mortality on those substandard year classes? That sort of focused effort could diminish an already weak age-class, and, given the current pressure (everyone and their mother these days is a striped bass angler), it’s not unreasonable to assume that a good portion of those fish would be gone before reaching spawning age. An appropriate size limit allows you to spread mortality out over a much broader swath of the population. That makes sense to me, because from a biological perspective what you want really is diversity, or, in other words, a good stratification or a lot of different year-classes.

My issue with this is there's no way mortality goes up. These new regs will result in less fish kept, it's literally impossible for that not to be the case. You can argue it's not enough though and I couldn't really counter it.

Edited by hurricane1091

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I disagree, especially in NJ.  With the old regulations it was one fish 28" to 43" and 1 over 43".  The bonus tag let you keep 1 fish between September to end of year, 24" to less then 28".  So lets throw out the bonus tag for now.  For the average fisherman, how many bass will the really catch in a season over 43"?  For the surf fishermen these days, not many.  Some for the boaters especially in the Raritan Bay spring season and this fall especially.  In reality though it's probably not a huge amount.  

 

Now we go to the new slot and NJ will certainly be using the conservation equivalency method here.  You will most definetly be able to kill two fish, no doubt in my mind. One fish will be the new 28"- 34" and the other say 26"- 32".  Way easier to catch a 26" fish then a fish over 43".  It's going to be a complete slaughter of fish in this size class. 

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1 hour ago, 27conch said:

I disagree, especially in NJ.  With the old regulations it was one fish 28" to 43" and 1 over 43".  The bonus tag let you keep 1 fish between September to end of year, 24" to less then 28".  So lets throw out the bonus tag for now.  For the average fisherman, how many bass will the really catch in a season over 43"?  For the surf fishermen these days, not many.  Some for the boaters especially in the Raritan Bay spring season and this fall especially.  In reality though it's probably not a huge amount.  

 

Now we go to the new slot and NJ will certainly be using the conservation equivalency method here.  You will most definetly be able to kill two fish, no doubt in my mind. One fish will be the new 28"- 34" and the other say 26"- 32".  Way easier to catch a 26" fish then a fish over 43".  It's going to be a complete slaughter of fish in this size class. 

 

What if it's literally 28-35 though? And only one fish? It might not be enough but it's something. No matter what I just hope this works out. I can't understand how MD does the 18" minimum still

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NJ , being a major killing state, no chance in hell that the limit will be 1 bass.  You have a better chance of winning the PowerBall.

 

Depending on which age chart you look at ,the majority of bass 28"-35", will be 6 to 9 years old.  So you can see how a slot puts more pressure on a smaller body of fish.  Now every state will be harvesting within this range. So lets say for argument sake, that the fish that fall within this range had a bad spawn or two along the way.  If you look at the YOY index chart, 2010 was below avg, 2011 was a record high, 2012 was dismal, 2013 bad and 2015 avg.  So for fish age 5-9, there was one really good, one average, and three really bad ones. Now the overall  population is lower that you are harvesting from.. Maryland is an entirely different discussion and they absolutely hammered the 2011 class.

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1 hour ago, 27conch said:

NJ , being a major killing state, no chance in hell that the limit will be 1 bass.  You have a better chance of winning the PowerBall.

 

Depending on which age chart you look at ,the majority of bass 28"-35", will be 6 to 9 years old.  So you can see how a slot puts more pressure on a smaller body of fish.  Now every state will be harvesting within this range. So lets say for argument sake, that the fish that fall within this range had a bad spawn or two along the way.  If you look at the YOY index chart, 2010 was below avg, 2011 was a record high, 2012 was dismal, 2013 bad and 2015 avg.  So for fish age 5-9, there was one really good, one average, and three really bad ones. Now the overall  population is lower that you are harvesting from.. Maryland is an entirely different discussion and they absolutely hammered the 2011 class.

I can only ask questions here as I'm new to the whole conservation aspect of this world. I've been told that the slot limit saved the redfish. Would you agree and if it is true, how come?

 

I reckon that the circle hook thing won't help, forgot to mention that. I fish with circles but I don't typically have an issue with J hooks and don't typically hear about that being much of a problem. The only fish with a gut hook problem I do believe is fluke. Not to say that stripers aren't gut hooked, I just don't think it's a crazy high frequency

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I am an  ALS tagger dating back to the late 1990's who fishes the surf only in mostly Monmouth county....tagged

over 1000 bass and returns show about a 50/50 ratio of those recaptured in Jersey and the rest in the states north of  here...only once did I catch one of my own tagged fish 6 months after it was released... I Just hope based on the situation that we are facing now with the bass population  that more fisherman get involved in the tagging program and practice C & R and get the reward of having your tagged bass recaptured by another fisherman...

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