gulino12

Dragger question

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So if we have proven C&R mortality to be 9%, are we saying that 9% of the by catch of draggers is also killed when it is is accidentally caught and returned to the ocean?Ie striped bass, bluefish or winter flounder? 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

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Just my opinion.....Most of the “bycatch” those guys shove back in has probably been dead for awhile when it hits the water.....And if the stress of a fight on light tackle kills Bass imagine tumbling around in a net with god knows what else for however long before they winch it up......

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7 mins ago, robc22 said:

What does angler C&R mortality have to do with dragger by-catch?........:headscratch:

Its the only figure im aware of, and there are quite a few threads on C&R so im curious what peoples thoughts are. My guess is its much higher then 9%

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12 mins ago, john1234 said:

Just my opinion.....Most of the “bycatch” those guys shove back in has probably been dead for awhile when it hits the water.....And if the stress of a fight on light tackle kills Bass imagine tumbling around in a net with god knows what else for however long before they winch it up......

I agree, which would make me think that number is much higher. In addition to higher throw backs, would lead me to believe they result in much more mortality. Are these included? A dragger with 5000 fish in its nets must kill lots of accidental by catch correct?

 

Whos got numbers on these?

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Just now, gulino12 said:

I agree, which would make me think that number is much higher. In addition to higher throw backs, would lead me to believe they result in much more mortality. Are these included? A dragger with 5000 fish in its nets must kill lots of accidental by catch correct?

 

Whos got numbers on these?

Go do your own research please......

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15 mins ago, gulino12 said:

I agree, which would make me think that number is much higher. In addition to higher throw backs, would lead me to believe they result in much more mortality. Are these included? A dragger with 5000 fish in its nets must kill lots of accidental by catch correct?

 

Whos got numbers on these?

I’ve seen some vids where they will follow a dragger in The Chesapeake and there are hundreds if not thousands of belly up floating bass......they certainly kill more than a lot of us realize.

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46 mins ago, z-man said:

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Does this commercial dead release include draggers or is that only com guys. Cause I was under the impression that was strictly commercial reel vs rec chart. Draggers don’t target sb so do they record them? I’m not sure that stat is relevant to dragging mortality. I agree it fits for rec vs comm mortality, just not sure it fits here? i have seen that chart, but I’m curious where the draggers fit in there as they don’t target bass. 
 

Also my question is for all non targeted species. What percentage of a drag boat catch is kept vs discarded and what percentage of the discards live? Bass blues flounder haddock cod? As this is the mass group my thinking is outside Boston harbor, boats targeting the poggies for example. 
 

 

Not trying to start anything other than a discussion. I thinks we’re all stewards of the sport here and can have a civilized discussion. No neEd to jump in and say find your own information, I’m trying to and I’d like to include this collective group as a resource. The NOAA study was interesting, but did not give me any numbers. I don’t know where to find numbers besides going on a boat and counting individual throwbacks and watching them float/ swim away

Edited by gulino12

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31 mins ago, gulino12 said:

Does this commercial dead release include draggers or is that only com guys. Cause I was under the impression that was strictly commercial reel vs rec chart. Draggers don’t target sb so do they record them? I’m not sure that stat is relevant to dragging mortality. I agree it fits for rec vs comm mortality, just not sure it fits here? i have seen that chart, but I’m curious where the draggers fit in there as they don’t target bass. 
 

Also my question is for all non targeted species. What percentage of a drag boat catch is kept vs discarded and what percentage of the discards live? Bass blues flounder haddock cod? As this is the mass group my thinking is outside Boston harbor, boats targeting the poggies for example. 
 

 

Not trying to start anything other than a discussion. I thinks we’re all stewards of the sport here and can have a civilized discussion. No neEd to jump in and say find your own information, I’m trying to and I’d like to include this collective group as a resource. The NOAA study was interesting, but did not give me any numbers. I don’t know where to find numbers besides going on a boat and counting individual throwbacks and watching them float/ swim away

Those are seiners not trawlers.....Totally different gear type. Google excluder devices, nordmore grates, pulse fishing etc.......It's not your grandfather's trawl.......

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2 mins ago, robc22 said:

Those are seiners not trawlers.....Totally different gear type. Google excluder devices, nordmore grates, pulse fishing etc.......It's not your grandfather's trawl.......

 Okay, your correct. Good technicality they are different. I’ll include that for our discussion as well. Which do you do?
 

for the record pretty sure I’ve seen draggers outside the harbor though they may not be targeting what I had expected. 

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1 min ago, gulino12 said:

 

 Okay, your correct. Good technicality they are different. I’ll include that for our discussion as well. Which do you do?
 

for the record pretty sure I’ve seen draggers outside the harbor though they may not be targeting what I had expected. 

I'm sure you have......A lot of trawling up that way.....https://capecodfishermen.org/gear-types

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First of all, I've worked on draggers, seiners and gill netters. The release mortality if virtually 100% in most cases and in instances of an empty set (just a handful of unwanted fish) it could be 0% as releasing them is easy. If you have thousands of pounds of mixed fish on the deck that you have to go through to pick what you can sell then the remainder has little of no chance of survival. Even so, I've caught thousands of winter flounder in Boston Harbor with "net rash" (skin indications that the fish has had interaction with a net, be it a trawl or gill net), some even with pick holes in their heads!

In May 2019 I was seeing net rash on 20-30% of all the fish we were catching on some days so the amount of net interaction involved with the remaining population is staggering! What the implication is is that as far as flounder go, in Boston Harbor we are getting only what the draggers do not want! The sizes left are small and that is exactly the trend since the state increased the commercial limits in 2013. The fish first got smaller and as of this year there are about 10% of the numbers of flounder in Boston Harbor that there were in 2012.

I complained about all this to The Division of Marine Resources (DMF Director David Pierce) in a meeting I had with him on 07/11/18 and he agreed that there was a problem and he promised to do something about it. With me at that meeting was OTW writer Ron Powers who had with him letters from virtually every tackle shop from Plum Island to Plymouth complaining about the diminishing flounder numbers/sizes. Even the state saltwater  derby weigh in numbers spelled out the story.

After a year of Mr. Pierce NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT he then told me that there is no problem with the flounder fishing and I am imagining things. AND IF there was a problem and any cutbacks were needed that he would take from the recreational fishermen first!!!

Is the DMF corrupt or stupid? They also try to blame everything on global warming. It's as if they want us to believe that it is merely a coincidence that the flounder population started tanking as soon as the dragging effort went up (cause and effect) and we are to believe that "warming water" is the  real issue.

When I ask why I/we have seen the same 90% reduction of sea bass and blackfish in Boston Harbor of the same past 6 years when "warming water" would be making conditions more favorable for those species??? I get silence...

Back to the subject of dragger release mortality: If they are fishing for/with relatively clean/short tows of winter flounder in relatively shallow water (like Cape Cod Bay) and a lot of the small ones are going through the large mesh they are required to use these days (causing ret rash) and the bag comes up with 500 pounds of fish and they keep 250 pounds of that 500 then it is conceivable that dragger "could have" near 0% mortality on the 250 pounds of fish released. Will they bother to try to get them back in the water so they have a chance to survive?

Without any observer coverage (which is the situation we have now) it is damn near impossible to say.

With deeper water and longer tows most everything is dead or mostly dead before it gets to the deck.

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