pavlov0032

Wind knots on Daiwa Tournament Ballistic rod TNBA33-405G

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Hi!

I wanted a rod/reel combo for a long cast to surf fish in Mexico..

Previously i had a 4 piece $74 Fiblink travel rod from Amazon which performed Ok, (I needed to tighten up the middle section every 30min or it was flying out during the cast). I was able to cast far above the waves at Pedregal beach in Cabo San Lucas, see video here:
 


So, I wanted to increased the casting distance further , to hit the rock where I saw yellowtail while spearfishing.. And I came across a good deal on Daiwa Tournament Ballistic rod TNBA33-405G 

with the idea of pairing it with Daiwa Basia QD45 reel.

Daiwa advertises this rod as Spinning AND Conventional reel compatible I was suspiscios right away as I saw how small the line guides are. 

So I took it to the beach today with Okuma vs 65 reel spooled with Daiwa j-braid 40lbs. Right away I got 5 windknots which never happened before..

During the cast the first line guide creates a "vortex" of line and I could hear a sound of line rubbing against the line guide..Very strange that Rod's first line guide that is installed in the middle of the middle section is surprisingly small for a spinning rod. Take a look at the photos..

So anyone else has any input about this rod? Am I doing something wrong or this rod is for conventional reels use despite what Daiwa website claim?

 

If this is a wrong rod for a spinning reel, which rod you guys recommend to pair with Basia 45 keeping in mind that I need to travel by air with it?

 

Here's some photos of the reel, the size of the first line guide (I cannot fit my pinkie thru it) and the distance from reel seat to the first guide
 

 

Thank you for your input in advance!

 

682DFBF8-E96C-4358-A5F8-AD8EF6A3712F.jpg

 

 

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Edited by TimS
Please don’t post commercial links here - thanks

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On 10/8/2019 at 1:31 PM, pavlov0032 said:

So anyone else has any input about this rod?

It sounds like you figured out the problem - the guides are not appropriate for the spinning reel you are using.  Not sure what anyone else could say :)

 

Quote

Am I doing something wrong or this rod is for conventional reels use despite what Daiwa website claim?

Sounds like it’s the guides, as you pointed out already. That would make it a rod more suited for a conventional reel.

 

The other thing - this is the distance casting forum - your question is more of a general fishing question than a competition casting question - so I’m gonna move it to the Main Forum in hopes someone can offer some specific advice :)

 

TimS

 

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If you are having problems with your line, it could be the line. Try taking some line off your reel. If it doesn't help, you can add the line back to the bottom of the spool. 

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It looks like your spool is over filled. Cut some line off and try again, and wind it tight.

I have the 10 1/2’ Daiwa Tournament Ballistic which shares the same butt guide, and I’m using a VR200 with 30lb Spiderwire Stealth and I get zero wind knots.

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I think dropping down to 30 lb braid and your spool is a hair overfilled.....looks like your throwing rangers and ice cream type lures .... id consider going 20 lb braid and tape your finger.... I have the same rod in interliner and set it up 30 lb mono spinning  for easy drum fishing and 30 braid conventional for max distance.....now I'm thinking ill do 20 braid spinning and give ice cream skinny  a try. don't give up on this rod its way versatile....

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Thank you all for replies!

 

I took my 9' Daiwa Eliminator Surf rod to the beach today, and casted about 20 times and not one single wind knot... That rod has normal surf line guides, large ones closest to the reel..

 

Then I called Daiwa customer service and asked them about wind knots.. They said that this rod is primarily for conventional reels, and it can ACCOMMODATE spinning reels (just like any other rod imho). I also asked them why on their surf spinning rods like "Team Daiwa"  they have normal spinning guides? He said "oh, these rods are spinning reel specific". I asked them why they advertising it as a "spinning surf rod" where it is really a casting rod with casting guides..Of course, the customer service rep had no answer..

 

So I'm returning this rod because I think its ridiculous to spend that kind of money for a rod that clearly made for casting reels. The whole issue is with Fuji Alconite low rider guides.. there's a thread about them:

 

AD_TeamDaiwaSurf.jpg

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Check out this article about Fuji Low Rider Guides - which I think are actually causing wind knot because of their small diameter for  a "striper" guide.


Fuji’s guide to solving wind knots
 

The advent of braided lines, while enormously beneficial to anglers in so many ways, brought with it one notable disadvantage: more tangles when casting. Blessed are those who only bottom fish and never need to cast. That's not to say that we had no tangles when we only had nylon, but the limpness of braid exacerbated the problem many times over.

The casting tangles are the result of a combination of inputs: line limpness, line twist, leader knots, and wind. Some braided line manufacturers claim to have a manufacturing process that has their product be stiffer than others, and while that no doubt helps to some small degree, it's not a solution by any means. It sure can't fix wind.

 

A while back in this column I ran through the evolution of Fuji's Low Rider guides for surfcasting rods. On long rods, it is viable to use the extra-long frames of the Low Riders, and the video that Fuji produced to go with their product illustrated the physics of how the frame design reduced casting tangles. Using a rod, with Low Riders, fixed so that it could be filmed, a weight was cast from another rod to pull line through the fixed rod. The thing you can't see when using the rod yourself is that at the beginning of the cast, the line launches off the reel so fast that it billows out beyond the first guide, actually running an S-shaped path through the guide, and showing great potential to tie a simple loop knot over the guide and bring the whole show to an instantaneous halt ' often with dire consequences for the terminal tackle.

The Low Rider frame has a shallow enough frame angle that the undesirable loop occasionally thrown around the guide had little chance of cinching down. Even so, Fuji recommend that the first ('stripper') guide be bound on reversed, i.e. with the long double legs toward the tip; because the tangles were more likely to come from the line snaking back down over the guide than from a straight line off the reel.

But for more regular spin rods, say less than three metres in length, Low Riders weren't ideal. The frames had to be long and hence relatively heavy, and the largest ring size that suited the purpose was 20mm. Plenty of people wanted a 40mm stripper guide, and some even wanted 50mm to cope with heaviest lines and leaders on the shortest of casting rods. Instead we used MN-style frames, which had the frame style of a Low Rider compressed into a shorter length with a taller, rounder profile. These tangled less than the V-frame style that had dominated for the 20 years beforehand. Still the stripper was bound on reversed, and compared to the V-frame guides the number of casting catastrophes was dramatically reduced, although of course not eliminated.

On to 2009. At the Australian Tackle Show, held annually in Queensland, Fuji released their new KW frame style, with modifications to the MN frame style specifically intended to further reduce casting tangles. The ring was laid forward at about a 20-degree angle from the vertical, the frame height and length were increased, and the double legs side was narrowed down so that the ring became the widest point. The double legs angled forward to meet the ring, rather than upwards as in the MN frame. Ring sizes go up to a 50mm, and there is no need to reverse the stripper. There was also two single-foot versions introduced (KL ' high and KT ' low), making the range of sizes well suited to casting rods of all sizes up to at least three metres ' maybe four metres, depending on your application.

So, you may well wonder, how come you haven't seen a whole bunch of new rods this year featuring KW guides? The simple answer is that to begin with, Fuji have only been making them with titanium frames, which while indisputably are the best, are also very expensive compared to stainless frames. They are simply too expensive for just about any production rods, so while a few of you now have custom rods with titanium KW-framed guides, the mass market haven't seen them yet.

That's about to change very quickly, as Fuji are now manufacturing the stainless-framed version of the same guides. I've just spent the last two weeks fishing with a bunch of pre-production samples of a new brand of rods, which will reach the market later this year, and which are predominantly fitted with stainless-framed KW silicon carbide guides. The brand is Azusa, and unless anybody else is really quick, they'll be the first factory rods in Australia to feature the guides.

Azusa is the brainchild of Japanese angler Yoshi Motoi, and he has spent the last two years developing the range of 32 rods, from light flickies to 2.7m spin rods. One significant point of difference to most rod ranges around is that instead of taking an overseas product and adapting it to Australian requirements, Motoi has designed these rods with the input of two experienced Australian anglers, one west coast and one east coast; so they are primarily rods for Australia, with Motoi's own Japan-influenced design features. For some time to come, they will only be sold in Australia.

Without getting into the various other design aspects of the Azusa rods, for now I can just report on the KW guides. I spent most of the time fishing with three models; a light 2.1m rod, a medium/heavy 2.1m rod, and a medium 2.7m rod. We had two of each model to field test.

The 2.7m rods, rated for 20-80g lures, were the ideal rods for a few days at Steep Point. I fished it with PE3 and PE5 braided lines, and Lexis 9kg monofilament, all fitted with casting leaders. For possibly the first time ever in some long casting sessions, the only time a cast came to an unanticipated halt was when I had forgotten to turn over the bail arm. Nice. We caught fish and everything performed just as we wanted.

From there we went on to Exmouth and the Monte Bellos, where the 2.1m rods saw all the boat work. The light ones once again ticked all the boxes, no casting tangles, no leader knots jamming in the guides, and the rods themselves were right.

The toughest test was the medium/heavy 2.1m model. I had wanted GT rods, but that particular model's blank was not yet finalised by August, so I had taken the next lighter rod, rated PE4-6 (40 to 60lb braid). Using 45kg braid and lures that were perhaps 50 per cent too heavy for the rod, I added to the challenge by using a twisted leader of 45kg Instinct nylon, that was wound back on to the reel, creating a hinge point that was the worst possible scenario for guide tangles, particularly if there was wind about.

It blew like a bar steward for the two sessions of GT fishing, and I still only experienced two guide tangles. Both times, it was the line-to-leader hinge point wrapping the first guide. That's not bad at all, and I could have negated that issue by shortening the leader so that it was off the reel rather than wrapped on to it when casting, if necessary; which I guess it was, but I still didn't do it. Thanks, Fuji. Good job.

Caption Lloyd Lyons of Tackle World Geraldton stretches an Azusa 702M Offshore spin rod, fitted with Fuji's new KW silicon carbide guides.

*(above from Western Angler)

Edited by TimS
Please don't post commercial links here - thanks

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I have a Daiwa Ballistic 35 , I fish it with a vs 300 and 50lb braid . I’ve never had a single wind knot . These are heavy rods that like heavy weights . Mine likes 5 oz and above or it’s hard to get to load. Maybe try heavier lures ?

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1. Reel is overfull, that powerful rod is pulling line off much faster than you are used to and the overfilling is causing more than one one coil of line to be pulled off at a time; this will be exaggerated if you have loose coils of line

2. The guide (it's a size 20 Low Rider / LC20) is not too small for spinning reels, many of my own big surf rods have them.

3. If you have the Basia already, go and test it on the rod. A Basia + that rod will cast extremely far

 

Apologies - it looked like the adjustable seat like Shimano used on the old Tiraljo's but its clearly a fixed seat

Edited by ZAFisher

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Not my favorite rod for Mexico but regardless, I used it Mexico and the practice field with 40# line and few reels and never experienced a single wind knot when the spools were not fully loaded.

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On 10/8/2019 at 10:31 AM, pavlov0032 said:

Hi!

I wanted a rod/reel combo for a long cast to surf fish in Mexico..

Previously i had a 4 piece $74 Fiblink travel rod from Amazon which performed Ok, (I needed to tighten up the middle section every 30min or it was flying out during the cast).

FWIW, bee's wax or candle wax on the male end will keep this from happening.:howdy:

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To comment on the article you posted.

Your rod is not a short heavy rod; it is 13'3" / 4.05m long. Exactly the sort of rod where Low Riders shine.

If the reel (stem) is about 120cm from the LC20, i doubt very much you would get blow past, and if you did, the LC is very, very good at shedding tangles; certainly better than MN style and equal to KW's

I would not suggest LC's on a rod less than 3m unless the reel used is either a conventional or a small fixed spool with light line.

But if it really bothers you that much you could replace (tape on to the opposite side of the mid section to test)

LC20 with a KW30H

LC16 with a KW25

Edited by ZAFisher

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Take a little line off that spool and after EVERY CAST flip your bail by hand and pull the line tight before you ever turn the handle. So called wind knots are caused by loose loops of line on your spool that get pulled off ahead of other loops ahead of it. WIND has nothing to do with these knots. 

Also about smaller guide rings. Cast on a quiet night and you hear a tic tic noise. It's called line slap as your line comes off the spool it is moving in a coiled fashion. The tic tic noise is the line passing from guide to guide with that same coiled fashion and hitting your blank between every guide. A smaller ring quickly takes that coil from the spool and reduces it in size stopping it from slapping the blank all the way out. 

Edited by DoorGunner

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1 hour ago, DoorGunner said:

Take a little line off that spool and after EVERY CAST flip your bail by hand and pull the line tight before you ever turn the handle. So called wind knots are caused by loose loops of line on your spool that get pulled off ahead of other loops ahead of it. WIND has nothing to do with these knots. 

Also about smaller guide rings. Cast on a quiet night and you hear a tic tic noise. It's called line slap as your line comes off the spool it is moving in a coiled fashion. The tic tic noise is the line passing from guide to guide with that same coiled fashion and hitting your blank between every guide. A smaller ring quickly takes that coil from the spool and reduces it in size stopping it from slapping the blank all the way out. 

 

What DG said. High Plains Drifter had a thread on this subject years ago. It is not a wind (as in blowing in the wind) knot, it is a wind (as in wind your watch) knot. It comes from winding loose coils onto the spool. 

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