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10wt guide help

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crowconor

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Hi everyone I was looking for a bit of assistance on guides for a 9ft 10wt CTS affinity X blank I am thinking about building. I am a bit of an amateur when it comes to some of these decisions so I figured getting second opinions could be beneficial. I was planning on using a #16 and #10 stripping guide followed by x8 size 8 running guides. I have read about using three stripping guides (adding a #20) instead of two, is there any benefit to this? I am also unsure about the guides I should use. I have read a lot of positive things about REC titanium snake guides, but was thinking about single foot ceramic insert running guides. I read that ceramic insert guides can have better performance and the idea of having half as many wraps is nice. I searched and found similar discussions but there didn't seem to be any consensus. Any suggestions? 

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I'm not an expert builder but I've built all my rods and like them so...

Just finished a 9' 9 weight I'll use for stripers here and juvie tarpon in the winter. I used a #16 and #12 stripper followed by a #10 single foot, then #8s the rest of the way. I used Fuji SICs because I had some left in my box, but built a similar 9 weight with PacBay Minimas and I like that rod too (some people are not wild about the Minimas though). I cast the new one first time yesterday and liked it a lot, not as nice a blank as your CTS though. FWIW I also put 2 locking wraps on each of the single foot guides as insurance. As far as performance I cast a Scott Tidal recently, which has snake guides instead of single foots, and I liked it just as much as my rod with singles performance wise. Might be that I'm not that discerning a caster, but I like using half the wraps. Maybe I'm just lazy...I don't think you can go too far wrong either way.

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9 hours ago, stormy monday said:

I'm not an expert builder but I've built all my rods and like them so...

Just finished a 9' 9 weight I'll use for stripers here and juvie tarpon in the winter. I used a #16 and #12 stripper followed by a #10 single foot, then #8s the rest of the way. I used Fuji SICs because I had some left in my box, but built a similar 9 weight with PacBay Minimas and I like that rod too (some people are not wild about the Minimas though). I cast the new one first time yesterday and liked it a lot, not as nice a blank as your CTS though. FWIW I also put 2 locking wraps on each of the single foot guides as insurance. As far as performance I cast a Scott Tidal recently, which has snake guides instead of single foots, and I liked it just as much as my rod with singles performance wise. Might be that I'm not that discerning a caster, but I like using half the wraps. Maybe I'm just lazy...I don't think you can go too far wrong either way.

Fair enough. I was looking at the pacbay minimas,  amtack titans, or fuji sics. But they all seemed pretty similar. I have used snake guides on most of my builds and they were fine. The thought of increasing the performance of the rod I built was appealing. I think i will end up with some titaniu guides none the less, the corrosion resistance sounds great. Thanks for your input. 

Edited by crowconor
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Having handled and fished rods with REC guides and ceramics, I would happily take ceramics every time for rods 7wt and up. I feared they would be too heavy for the longest time but honestly don't see a huge difference while casting. "A" difference, absolutely. But while actually fishing, the ceramics feel so good. Even alconites feel better than snakes of any type and I know some who like SiC or better. Up until now I have been a firm believer of REC single leg guides and the will absolutely yield the most responsive rod possible, but it's possible to get a very lively rod with ceramics as well and you gain other things too.

 

The huge advantage of ceramics is the smoothness of line flow while fishing. REC guides are lighter, but they just don't feel as good when a fly line is passing through them. The fact that you will never have to replace a guide due to wear is another massive benefit. Replacing guides is a huge pain and trust me when I say it feels so good to finish a rod and know you'll never have to do it again. 

 

For a 10wt, I'd go for minimum size 7 runners. With torzite or RSOL you can go size 6 and get away with it. If you go as follows:

 

16-12-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-tip top

I'd go with titanium SiC if at all possible, but I have a friend who built a rod with black alconite guides and it works extremely well. Catches fish as well as my 10wt outfitted with titanium RSOL and REC single foot runners. It's just a fishing rod after all. Just build it and fish your brains out!

Edited by RedGreen
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1 hour ago, RedGreen said:

Having handled and fished rods with REC guides and ceramics, I would happily take ceramics every time for rods 7wt and up. I feared they would be too heavy for the longest time but honestly don't see a huge difference while casting. "A" difference, absolutely. But while actually fishing, the ceramics feel so good. Even alconites feel better than snakes of any type and I know some who like SiC or better. Up until now I have been a firm believer of REC single leg guides and the will absolutely yield the most responsive rod possible, but it's possible to get a very lively rod with ceramics as well and you gain other things too.

 

The huge advantage of ceramics is the smoothness of line flow while fishing. REC guides are lighter, but they just don't feel as good when a fly line is passing through them. The fact that you will never have to replace a guide due to wear is another massive benefit. Replacing guides is a huge pain and trust me when I say it feels so good to finish a rod and know you'll never have to do it again. 

 

For a 10wt, I'd go for minimum size 7 runners. With torzite or RSOL you can go size 6 and get away with it. If you go as follows:

 

16-12-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-tip top

I'd go with titanium SiC if at all possible, but I have a friend who built a rod with black alconite guides and it works extremely well. Catches fish as well as my 10wt outfitted with titanium RSOL and REC single foot runners. It's just a fishing rod after all. Just build it and fish your brains out!

Disagree:

I would go with a #20 stripper - then a #16 - preferably Torzite.

Then an REC Recoil #6, #5, then 6 #4's.  Either single foot or snakes. 

Yeah - I know the "modern" thought to go immediately to the smaller runner size directly from the second guide.  I have done both.  I see no advantage and the sudden constriction of the line by doing so is disconcerting.

 And, of course, use an REC recoil large ring tip-top.

Ceramics as runners for a fly rod are ill advised.

They are much too heavy.  Blanks like a CTS are very lively and you will negatively affect the performance.  Blanks cannot tell the difference between heavy components and over-lining.  So if you do use ceramics you will be depleting some of the performance potential of that great blank.

Further - the only Torzite single footed Fuji are the KT model with a heavier frame.  The "true" single footed Fuji Ti frame is only available in SiC.  The #7 that was recommended to you has an inside diameter of 0.189.5".  A #2 REC single foot guide has an inside diameter of 0.232".

I don't think anyone would recommend that you use a runner on a 10wt rod smaller than a #2.

Then there is the erroneous idea that friction plays a large part in casting.  It does not.

Where friction does play a nominal part is reeling in a large fish.  But "pumping" the rod then "reeling" negates that advantage of ceramics over wire guides.

Regards,

Herb

U.S. Distributor CTS Rod Blanks

 

Edited by HL
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Herb

 

Cool that you disagree. Discussion is interesting and healthy. 

 

In my experience I have never found myself seriously needing a size 20 stripper, I see no real advantage in line flow with it. If anything smaller is better so knots and tangles don't make it into the guide train and are easier and faster to untangle. I'm a perfectly capable caster in all environments and your casting technique has far more influence over casting than hardware does. Size 16 is enough but 20 is ok. 25 is way too much. Some TFO rods are like this and I just cannot understand why it's necessary on a fly rod at all. 

 

My 10wt right now has goes as follows. Ceramic size 16, 12, 8, then REC RSFX4 (6x) and an REC tip top. I have never found the size 8 ring to be a handicap, and honestly a bit smaller would still work.

 

The rod is stupid lively and recovers practically instantly. But I much prefer a friend's rod when fishing, a 10wt CTS affinity with titanium SiC guides, believe they are a size 7 or 8. That rod is also stupid lively. 

 

I have a friend who uses size 6 alconite KTs on a cheap 8wt that is just so sweet to cast and fish. Lively and sensitive.

 

Plainly, both RECs and ceramics work great. Ceramics don't deaden the rod that much unless you go with steel ones. OP, best way to learn is to find out yourself. If you find you don't like the ceramics and how they feel after taping them on, PM me and I'll buy them off you! I've got a couple builds to do this winter anyways. 

 

One more thing to stir the pot. Never ever found it necessary to have double footed guides on any type on a single handed rod. All my future builds will be with single legged spinning guides for the stripper. 

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Thank you for all the suggestions and well thought out responses. Is there an advantage to having three stripping guides, or is it un-neccessary? Can I also trouble someone to explain why they would choose a size 20 stripper over a 16 for the initial guide? 

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2 hours ago, crowconor said:

Thank you for all the suggestions and well thought out responses. Is there an advantage to having three stripping guides, or is it un-neccessary?  Not necessary. Can I also trouble someone to explain why they would choose a size 20 stripper over a 16 for the initial guide?

If you saw a slow motion video of a line moving through fly rod guides after a powerful haul - you would see that the line has a tendency to over run the stripper. i.e The line forms a loop between the reel and the stripper that moves forward and below the stripper.  Before the loop can move forward it has to move backwards to behind the stripper.  This wastes energy. A #20 would lessen that tendency better than a #16 .

Since you will receive arguments on both sides - test it yourself using a #16 - then a #20.

Herb

 

 

Edited by HL
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16 or 20 for the stripper is fine. In reality a size 20 is unnecessary but it doesn't hurt much. None of your guides have to be double footed. Single foots the whole way down are plenty. Spinning guides for the stripper in appropriate sizes are all you need. 

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As I said - sometimes I use #16 but mostly #20.

But on a #10 rod I would not use S/F strippers - especially if going with Titanium.

They are going to get bent and Ti is not as forgiving for repeated stressing as would REC Recoils.

Of course - REC now has recoils with inserts.  But I would stay with Fuji K's in Ti and Torz.

Herb 

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