squammer

Another Leader Question: Adding Stiffer Butt Section to Leader?

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Alright alright... I like knots. I’m going to try this tapered leader thing.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Practiced a few blood knots last night joining 30lb and 20lb fluoro. That 30lb stuff is stiff and gave me a hard time when cinching down the knot at the end even w/ moisture. The 20lb side barreled up nicely and neatly but the 30lb side of the knot was a bit messy. I can imagine that with 40-50lb fluoro, it would be even more difficult. I also was hesitant to trim the tag ends down to be flush with knot -- just dont have the confidence in the knot yet.

 

Very nice looking knot though when done right!

 

Edited by squammer

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Old technique here. We are doing this perfection loop to loop on heavy leaders up to 3’ long in 80 lb as a S-tippet section wih out sacrifice long casting, just few seasons ago I run out of wire for gators, this loop to loop works on my poppers, Im also happy with a 0 ring or even a 50lb swivel will work on uneven or unbalanced “low to high”line diameter transitions that will effect a desire turn overs. The fly profile and weight will require more time and attention for better adjustments to balance the optimum performance on this system, a simple try and error is usually all is need to make it work. The Loops, 0 ring and swivel will cause Snag a lot of sea weed, grass ...if present.

Pictures are from YouTube clip, also google Massimo Magliocco for more.

Hope it helps.

Good luck.

Viete

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Squammer

i used to use water or spit to lube the knot.

A friend told me to use Bert's Bees lip moisturizer as a lube.

It will seat that 30# to 20# blood knot.

Herb

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Try one turn less in the heavier line.

 

Four turn water knots form a very best even in heavy mono. My pref if tying tapered leaders.

 

if you use a loop to loop just for the tippet section it is a good idea to tye very long loops. Long loops are more supple and lie much better,

 

Short loops tend to be stiff and don’t lie at all well. Horrible in fact.

 

When it is all said and done a very simple and effective the solution is a single shot of clear supple mono in 20 Lb test. Just loop it into fly line . Go fishing catch fish have a good time.

 

oly

 

 

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Fly line if no loop / nail knot 

fly line with loop / double surgeon 

I use a double surgeon’s knot all the way?  

Can ty them behind your back. 

the fly / loop knot or perfection 

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FWIW if you do a blood knot on the connection you can leave one tag end long for an additional fly teaser 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Lefty recommended heavy and soft butts. Heavy to provide enough momentum so the leader is in charge of where the fly goes; soft so it turns over in a tight, least-wind-resistant loop.

 

Years ago, Swisher and Richards took the same point to an extreme with their flat butt leaders, which gave extremely tight loops but which, in my inexpert hands, led to hellacious tangles with the least little bit of tailing loop. They also and perhaps to minimize the tangle problem used Mason hard mono for the tippet and lighter segments.

Edited by Steve Schullery

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All sound advice from submitters. BUT, I did see one aspect omitted. Your leader butt section cannot be stiffer than your fly line. If it is, then your line tip section will collapse. Too soft, and the leader will not turn the fly over. 

 

Take the end of your fly line and lay various sizes of leader next to it. Flex them together to find the butt size that efficiently matches the flex of the line. That is your butt section size. 

 

For example, I use a #40 butt section 42” long tied to a #20 mid section 24” long  sections joined with a surgeons knot. Loops on each end with a surgeons loop. Add #8,#10 or #12 tippet 36” long. 

 

Works well with a variety of flies. I use Maxima Chameleon. 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Thanks everyone.

 

I’ve been using 30lb fluoro to 20lb fluoro blood knotted for medium sized flies and clousers.

 

For smaller 2/0 and 1/0 deceivers I’ve been doing 30/20/16. 

 

The blood knot has become easy and fun to tie.

 

I have however become curious about the RIO Striper knotless tapered leaders. When you select the lb test you want, is this the measurement of the tip section of the tapered leader?

Edited by squammer

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Posted (edited) · Report post

"Your leader butt section cannot be stiffer than your fly line. If it is, then your line tip section will collapse. Too soft, and the leader will not turn the fly over.

Take the end of your fly line and lay various sizes of leader next to it. Flex them together to find the butt size that efficiently matches the flex of the line. That is your butt section size."

 

This is the "common wisdom".....and one which I believed for a long time.  And, as long as I didn't use heavier than 40# Maxima.....it seemed to have validity.  However, take note of Steve Schullery's post above.  My experience with the disastrous 80# butt of Seaguar.....which seemed approximately stiff to the end of my flyline. ...got me thinking again.  It SHOULD have worked, according to the above test.....but it most definitely DIDN"T.

 

On re-thinking and analyzing, I think the physics of loop propagation through the end of the flyline is dependent on many more variables ....one of which can include the (variable) wind resistant drag....or lack of.... of the fly.  For example, the stiffness of the end the fly line is only one property, while much greater mass (than leader butt) is another.  Given the acceleration-deceleration of mass of the line passing through the loop, there is not much reason to think that the relatively mass-less leader is going to act similarly to the configration of the mass-rich fly line, even though stiffness is equal.

 

Because the problems of tailing loop and leader collapse are more determined by casting stroke errors, leader/tippet length, and wind resistance/weight of the fly......it is NOT clear to me that overall leader butt stiffness is a serious positive controlling factor.

 

What IS clear to me is that leader strengths 40# and below to 20# for a butt or even straight level operate for the most part, in saltwater fly fishing, quite acceptably and with simplicity to almost everyone's satisfaction, while no one is necessarily specifying stiff or supple   And, heavier AND stiff....does not.  Heavier and SUPPLE I have not tried yet.  Trying to get the perfect thistle-down turnover and landing of a #14 dry fly.....is just not a positive commodity in saltwater.   KISS?? 

 

Again, read Steve Schullery's post  

Edited by Peter Patricelli

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Yes. The weight rating is at the thinnest part of the leader - the tippet. 

 

Always keep eel in mind that each mfg. will have a different rating per tippet size. And a different flex. No, it can’t be easy!  

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