Rate this topic

102 posts in this topic

Cary

 

I find myself with a contra view again. A Clouser cast same way as a none weighted fly will kick on the end of a back cast. Hard stops are just not helpful. Soon as the fly kicks under the fly leg the caster is in trouble. Loss of tension and loss of control. High back casts are totally not helpful as to get a straight line rod path we need to tilt the casting plane in a downward direction. Classic set up for a fly like a Clouser to hit our rod even in good conditions. Two approaches are helpful one is to use an eliptical casting stroke or drift and  feed  some line into the back cast to prevent that kick back. Thick tapered leaders may well help but I think the inertia of the fly cast quickly enough is the reason it will turn over.

For a new Fly caster the Clouser is just about the worst fly to cast if they care about not breaking their rods. It takes a bit of time to aquire the skill set to safely cast these flies. One with heavy eyes just magnifies the problem.

If anyone disagrees with me I challenge you to lend your best rod to a recent beginner and a box of Clousers for the day. Even better with a wind on their casting shoulder.:howdy:

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2019 at 8:57 AM, Mike Oliver said:

Clousers tied  with all the material on the one side of the hook.are very simple to tye.

 

The materials rarely if ever foul and eaven better they stay  blended together better.

 

They are also quicker to tye.

Mike,

TOP O THE MORNING TO YA!   The the Royal Harwich Regiment of Clouser Salute you

RJ

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Cary

 

I find myself with a contra view again. A Clouser cast same way as a none weighted fly will kick on the end of a back cast. Hard stops are just not helpful. Soon as the fly kicks under the fly leg the caster is in trouble. Loss of tension and loss of control. High back casts are totally not helpful as to get a straight line rod path we need to tilt the casting plane in a downward direction. Classic set up for a fly like a Clouser to hit our rod even in good conditions. Two approaches are helpful one is to use an eliptical casting stroke or drift and  feed  some line into the back cast to prevent that kick back. Thick tapered leaders may well help but I think the inertia of the fly cast quickly enough is the reason it will turn over.

For a new Fly caster the Clouser is just about the worst fly to cast if they care about not breaking their rods. It takes a bit of time to aquire the skill set to safely cast these flies. One with heavy eyes just magnifies the problem.

If anyone disagrees with me I challenge you to lend your best rod to a recent beginner and a box of Clousers for the day. Even better with a wind on their casting shoulder.:howdy:

 

Mike

Agree w/ u Mike -- the heavier eyes the bigger the kickback or shock at the end of the backcast.

 

With bead chains not so much.... at least that's what I feel when I cast. Also agree on a elliptical or Belgian cast.

 

I must say - I probably have caught over 90% of my fly rod fish on clousers/ clouser variations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Capt.Castafly said:

I tie maybe two hundred Frenchtown Clouser's during the winter months for an entire fishing charter season. It's a special fly I've tied and used now for 25 years. I've modified it a few time and got it to the point is so durable and catches all species and records on board, most personal best for every client who uses it. My trick to tying the eyes in place, I use liquid Super Glue too. I NEVER use any "X" Wrap. If you use that technique you have x's across the top, none on the bottom. On the bottom the thread just goes around the hook shank, not the bead. I'll start with 3 wraps the same direction, now three wraps in the opposite direction. Now you have X's on both side of the fly. This is when I apply the liquid super glue too, top and bottom. I continue to wrap in threes, one way and the other way for a series of four progressions. Wrap around the eyes in a circle to tighten it more, extend the thread to the eye hook and whip finish. The super glue gets worked into the hook, bead, and thread all at once. I also place a paper towel on my vise plate to keep that surface clear of glue splatters.

Done this on thousands of flies. None ever fail or even rotate.

What's a Frenchtown Clouser ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Captain Ray's flies should be illegal. Poor fish can't resist them.

About a decade ago I was demo tying saltwater flies at a fishing club expo. Captain Ray observed me and offered several suggestions to improve my technique. He's always been generous with sharing his observations and techniques.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Cary

 

I find myself with a contra view again. A Clouser cast same way as a none weighted fly will kick on the end of a back cast. Hard stops are just not helpful. Soon as the fly kicks under the fly leg the caster is in trouble. Loss of tension and loss of control. High back casts are totally not helpful as to get a straight line rod path we need to tilt the casting plane in a downward direction. Classic set up for a fly like a Clouser to hit our rod even in good conditions. Two approaches are helpful one is to use an eliptical casting stroke or drift and  feed  some line into the back cast to prevent that kick back. Thick tapered leaders may well help but I think the inertia of the fly cast quickly enough is the reason it will turn over.

For a new Fly caster the Clouser is just about the worst fly to cast if they care about not breaking their rods. It takes a bit of time to aquire the skill set to safely cast these flies. One with heavy eyes just magnifies the problem.

If anyone disagrees with me I challenge you to lend your best rod to a recent beginner and a box of Clousers for the day. Even better with a wind on their casting shoulder.:howdy:

 

Mike

Hi Mike, if you go back and look at my post, you'll see I accounted for backcast issues. I get what you're saying but you're skirting the imporance of a proper leader - IMHO - which can make casting a Clouser very easy, even for a person who can only throw 50' of line or so. They behave just like any other fly, they just have tiny bit of extra weight. The right leader controls that easily. I've spent a lifetime fishing in the Tropics, with weighted flies, helped many a beginner get the hang of it. The Leader is the key.

 

Said as kindly to you as possible: Seeing as how you haven't even seen the OP cast and considering you don't know what leader he's using, the casting analyis isn't really meaningful here, nor is the phobia of a weigthed fly. The kick you're talking about is from a leader that isn't supporting weight. 

 

Short of a casting video of the person in quesiton, I'd suggest one thing first and foremost - is the leader right. Then I'd suggest examining beach drop, potential obstacles and noting fly-line head length and leader length. 

 

Then, if it's still not working right, go to a power leader and perhaps a line with a beefier and or shorter head. Then, if it's STILL not working right, shorten the leader even more. 

 

Then, if its still not working right - ..etc Time to take a casting lesson. I've just seen WAY too many beginners and even intermediate casters have zero problems with weighted flies, once they get set up properly. 

 

Mike, you had mentioned a while ago that you use single piece 20lb leader, 6' in length usually. This will of course cause noticeable kick with weighted flies and may be factoring into your opinion here regarding casting weighted flies (I don't really know). There is no denying that the right leader makes very easy work out of a weighted fly, so I must admit you have me baffled a bit.  

 

All we have to go on here is a picture of some beat up Clousers and a compaling that the flies aren't holding up. Obviously, abrasion is happening in high degrees. Therefore, let's let the OP help us figure out the problem? Sound fair enough?

 

To the OP - Mr. Pitcherofnectar: What leader and line are you using to deliver your Clousers that are in the picture? Also, in your estimation, what is your casting level - Beginer, Intermediate or Advanced? Third, what kind of obstacles are you hitting on your back cast (a gravel beach, a rock wall..etc?) -- if any -- or is the water causing the damage to the flies in your opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 min ago, CaryGreene said:

Hi Mike, if you go back and look at my post, you'll see I accounted for backcast issues. I get what you're saying but you're skirting the imporance of a proper leader - IMHO - which can make casting a Clouser very easy, even for a person who can only throw 50' of line or so. They behave just like any other fly, they just have tiny bit of extra weight. The right leader controls that easily. I've spent a lifetime fishing in the Tropics, with weighted flies, helped many a beginner get the hang of it. The Leader is the key.

 

Said as kindly to you as possible: Seeing as how you haven't even seen the OP cast and considering you don't know what leader he's using, the casting analyis isn't really meaningful here, nor is the phobia of a weigthed fly. The kick you're talking about is from a leader that isn't supporting weight. 

 

Short of a casting video of the person in quesiton, I'd suggest one thing first and foremost - is the leader right. Then I'd suggest examining beach drop, potential obstacles and noting fly-line head length and leader length. 

 

Then, if it's still not working right, go to a power leader and perhaps a line with a beefier and or shorter head. Then, if it's STILL not working right, shorten the leader even more. 

 

Then, if its still not working right - ..etc Time to take a casting lesson. I've just seen WAY too many beginners and even intermediate casters have zero problems with weighted flies, once they get set up properly. 

 

Mike, you had mentioned a while ago that you use single piece 20lb leader, 6' in length usually. This will of course cause noticeable kick with weighted flies and may be factoring into your opinion here regarding casting weighted flies (I don't really know). There is no denying that the right leader makes very easy work out of a weighted fly, so I must admit you have me baffled a bit.  

 

All we have to go on here is a picture of some beat up Clousers and a complaint that the flies aren't holding up. Obviously, abrasion is happening in high degrees. Therefore, let's let the OP help us figure out the problem? Sound fair enough?

 

To the OP - Mr. Pitcherofnectar: What leader and line are you using to deliver your Clousers that are in the picture? Also, in your estimation, what is your casting level - Beginer, Intermediate or Advanced? Third, what kind of obstacles are you hitting on your back cast (a gravel beach, a rock wall..etc?) -- if any -- or is the water causing the damage to the flies in your opinion?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On another note - all of the tying suggestions in the thread are very informative, but it's a bit humerous too because, it's like advising someone to wear pants, an a jacket made out of kevlar so that when they fall off the motorcycle, they won't get scraped up quite so bad. First we have to ask, why is the person falling off the motorcylcle to begin with? How is the motorcycle being driven? Are there handlebars on the bike? Does it have a seat? Do the tires wobble when the bike moves? Is a rim possibly bent? 

 

Clearly the flies in question aren't standing up well. Mr. Pitcherofnecter will have to chime in. 

 

I will say this - a long while ago, back in the 80s, I fished with a kid who was using store bought Clousers (he got them at an Orvis store). He was having a similar problem, the flies were just breaking down too fast. He gave me one so I could test it out. Mine fell apart quickly too. 

 

He was using a store bought Leader, I was using a 3-piece leader that was so-so in terms of it's abilty to turn a weighted pattern over. We were both spanking the water on the back-cast and sometimes, the gravel covered beach. The flies were just blowing up. It was frustrating. 

 

Two things were at play. Improper Leader and Flies that weren't durable. We were both okay enough casters. We went to a better made leader and next time out, the problems mostly went away, but still, the eyes on the store bought Clousers were twisting off and coming loose. They were made in Kenya, Trinidad or Srilanka (where Orvis does their piece rate exploitation, er, fly-tying operation). The flies were obviously crap. I tested one with a stronger leader and the problems greatly dissipated, but the resutls were still not acceptable. 

 

My friend started tying his own flies around that time and he also started making his own Leaders. I began experimenting with saltwater Leaders at that time also, in the name of making things easier and getting better results. 

 

It isn't too much to ask. A fly-caster can experience straight-line presentations with weigthed patterns. But, they need to figure out the Line/Leader combination and assess how they're functioning together. Then, they should try adjusting this combination and making a few notes. The dividends are absoltuely worth it. 

 

Leader Material that isn't the right diameter will not support a weighted pattern well. Fly lines that are too delicate in their front tapers will not support a weighted pattern well. Leaders that are too soft will not support the weighted flies well and turover will pretty much stink. 

 

"Medium-Hard" Leader material, tied in the right THREE-PIECE configuation and made to pair well with a given line it's being used with, will greatly help in the delivery of weighted patters. This I am certain of. Granted, a person has to be able to cast well enough to to play their part in this equation. But you don't need to be Jerry Siem to cast a simple Clouser a reasonable distance with zero issues. Its not THAT hard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 mins ago, CaryGreene said:

Hi Mike, if you go back and look at my post, you'll see I accounted for backcast issues. I get what you're saying but you're skirting the imporance of a proper leader - IMHO - which can make casting a Clouser very easy, even for a person who can only throw 50' of line or so. They behave just like any other fly, they just have tiny bit of extra weight. The right leader controls that easily. I've spent a lifetime fishing in the Tropics, with weighted flies, helped many a beginner get the hang of it. The Leader is the key.

 

Said as kindly to you as possible: Seeing as how you haven't even seen the OP cast and considering you don't know what leader he's using, the casting analyis isn't really meaningful here, nor is the phobia of a weigthed fly. The kick you're talking about is from a leader that isn't supporting weight. 

 

Short of a casting video of the person in quesiton, I'd suggest one thing first and foremost - is the leader right. Then I'd suggest examining beach drop, potential obstacles and noting fly-line head length and leader length. 

 

Then, if it's still not working right, go to a power leader and perhaps a line with a beefier and or shorter head. Then, if it's STILL not working right, shorten the leader even more. 

 

Then, if its still not working right - ..etc Time to take a casting lesson. I've just seen WAY too many beginners and even intermediate casters have zero problems with weighted flies, once they get set up properly. 

 

Mike, you had mentioned a while ago that you use single piece 20lb leader, 6' in length usually. This will of course cause noticeable kick with weighted flies and may be factoring into your opinion here regarding casting weighted flies (I don't really know). There is no denying that the right leader makes very easy work out of a weighted fly, so I must admit you have me baffled a bit.  

 

All we have to go on here is a picture of some beat up Clousers and a compaling that the flies aren't holding up. Obviously, abrasion is happening in high degrees. Therefore, let's let the OP help us figure out the problem? Sound fair enough?

 

To the OP - Mr. Pitcherofnectar: What leader and line are you using to deliver your Clousers that are in the picture? Also, in your estimation, what is your casting level - Beginer, Intermediate or Advanced? Third, what kind of obstacles are you hitting on your back cast (a gravel beach, a rock wall..etc?) -- if any -- or is the water causing the damage to the flies in your opinion?

Hi Cary,

 

lets not dance around each other afraid to upset the other. Because we won’t we are chewing stuff over and just happen to think differently on this topic.

You are right my stds leader is a 20 lb single shot and for me they work. I can cast heavy Clousers because I have the ability to do so with these leaders but it is still not a pleasant experience. I agree I have not seen the OP cast or his leader set up although his problems with busted eyes might suggest that both might need addressing. Like yourself I see hundreds of guys casting every year, and the stand out problems I see are sinking lines and big Clousers cast on any line float or sink.
If a heavy fast tapered leader can sort out the Clouser issues brilliant but I suspect it will not be the total solution. 
Apart from kick there is also the potential problem of a back cast with sag. If creep is added  then those big dumbell eyes are real icing on the cake. Slack in the line at the end of a fore cast if false casts are used is not great and creep can again come into play.   Guys who retrieve their fly almost to the rod tip have to make false casts and with little fly line outside the rod tip that Clouser is going to be very difficult to control.  These faults can be found in new, Intermediate and even good casters have bad days.

Cant recall max size of Spirit River Eyes but I sure would not let anyone cast my rod if they were on my leader no matter what level they were at.

Ok to be fair when I am off my crutches sometime around end of Sep and fit again I will take my 10 wt single hander and 10 wt Airflow Striper I Line and tye on some pretty aggressive leaders and have at it. But it will be with an appropriate casting technique that allows for constant tension through to the fly. A stiff leader is not going to prevent the fly from kicking at the end of a std overhead.

All weighted flies need more skill and technique than none weighted.  Then let’s throw in wind on casting shoulder. Making eliptical casting strokes cross body is a very tough call and most of us have less effective casts if we elect for a back hand delivery.

Other parameters are distance and expectations. The further we want to cast these heavy flies the more the problems increase.
 Even Clousers with small eyes say 5/32 can be rod blank lethal if they hit the blank hard enough. Not always the casters fault as a fluke gust of wind can be the actual cause of the collision. Throw in heavy fly lines and the force is considerable.

If we have boulders and or a rising beach behind us it just adds to the challenge. High back cast is not going to work with an elpitical cast. It starts low right through to the end of the back cast. So it will need high line speed to keep fly out of trouble. Other solution is drift and some line feed to cushion the fly so it does not kick if making a std overhead cast.  All doable in theory.

I am betting that the Clouser is the most fished fly that is weighted.

There are gear changes that we can make like more aggressive front tapers to our fly lines and thicker tapered leaders. But don’t know about you but these gear solutions are getting out of hand if we use fly lines as an example.

On a personal note I do fish Clousers but only with 5/32 eyes from Spirit River. If I need more depth than these can give then it is a fly line solution similar to what I would use for a none weighted fly. I am not going the route of a specialised line for heavy flies like Clousers, Travelling very light is very important  to me.

Ok so I promise to revisit if anyone is remotely interested after I have done some casting trials with thick fast tapered leaders. If not spare me the time.

Mike

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

lets not dance around each other afraid to upset the other.

Hi Mike, 

 

I'm not dancing around you for fear I'd upset you or visa-versa. I feel you're potentially very wrong on this subject. Your reply indicates you haven't even tested the impact a proper Leader can have on turning over a weighted fly. I have about 43 years of experience (since I first discovered the right Leader forumulas for saltwater fishing) that says it absoltuely can. 

 

I'm also referring to numerous casters of all levels who I've helped get the terminal side of things adjusted properly and who then can handle weighted flies easily. In your observations, you're seeing a lot of casters but not evaluating this point. 

4 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Ok so I promise to revisit if anyone is remotely interested after I have done some casting trials with thick fast tapered leaders. If not spare me the time.

Definitely might want to try my suggestion first, before opining. Also, the fast taper to be clear is a fast front-taper and elongated, heavy butt section, which supports weighted flies nicely because of it's diamter and stiffness. 

 

Use the wrong material here and you will report sheot results. Best to know what you're doing if you're goint to experiement with this. Take some time to learn what I recommend. Read the post I reference above. Read the whole Leader thread in fact. We get into which materials are better than others..etc. Make sure to use not just a heavy leader, but one that is made with your fly line in mind - meaning the Butt-Section is .010" thinner than the tip of your fly line. Make sure to use Medium-Stiff Mono or Fluoro. If you do this, you will conclude what I already know - and really don't need you to experiment with and validate. I've already done that Mike - and have been teaching others the ways of the Lightning Leader for over 20 years. 

 

What I'm suggesting is not experimental. It's factual. For weight to turn over, Line and Leader Diameter are both necessary. Any normal saltwater line, even a wimpier Wulff TT line, will turn over a normally weighted fly. Heavier flies may require one to snip back on a wimpy line (one that has a long, gradual, finer diameter front taper) but snipping back alone will not solve a problem of weighted flies. 

 

In fact, certain lines excel at helping to turn over heavily weighted patterns. In situations where folks use heavily weighted flies, they often pair a proper leader with a line that has a thicker front section of Head. They do this for exceptionally heavy weighted flies. 

 

The flies pitcured in this thread are normal Clouser minnows. Easty to turn over with almost any line, providing you have the right leader. 

Edited by CaryGreene
My math was off. I discovered the Lightning Leader in 1980. That's 43 years, not 20. But - it feels like 20!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What happens if you use a Leader with a Butt-Diameter thicker than the tip of the Fly Line? Energy doesn't transfer. Performance suffers substantially.

 

What happens if you use a Leader with a Butt-Diameter significantly thinner than the Tip of your fly line? Energy is lost. Transfer suffers badly. Weight can't be turned over if a line or leader is too thin. Weight can still easily be moved, but it won't come over the top and be easily controlled. It will skim below the Fly-LIne Leg and get hung up on the Rod Leg or, worse yet, hit your rod (or you) during the cast. If anyone knows what a pocket water fly cast looks like, with a level, flat-mono line and a proper leader to match (covered in the Leader thread), the heavily weighted fly - quite deliberately an on purpose, comes shooting under the whole cast and it plops in the water first, with the virtually weghtless line trailing high above it.

 

The fly quickly settles to the bottom, the flat, level mono line turns sideways when the current pushes against it, and an optimal, bottom bouncing drift occurs that, if you have the weight right, allows the fly to move very slowly, at the pace of the natural particles bouncing along the bottom of a river. 

 

When fishing weighted flies in saltwater, the same thing happens if the Leader can't support the fly. The fly trails below everything and doesn't turn over at all. That makes for a disasterous back-cast and crappy forward cast. Turnover doesn't occur. Simple as that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, gman1253 said:

What's a Frenchtown Clouser ??

This is my Silver Year Anniversary, 25 years of professional guiding in RI and nearby MA, and CT.

So many wonderful events, memories, time on the water, I wouldn't trade for anyone.

The list is endless the trophy fish caught on a feather, 1/0 single hook, and a little wimpy fly rod and 15 lbs. tippet.

I'm so blessed. I can only take some of the credit. It's the marriage, bond, confidence, and truly friendship of each of one of my loyal clients like Ted who I see year after year, progressing at a hobby they love. Catch rate and success is a combination of many things involving Captain and clients. The formula only works when everything is equal and nature does it's part. 

 

So much personal satisfaction watching friends attain their goals, catch their biggest treasure, having great number of successful trips.

I feel best and blessed that over the years, nobody had questioned my wisdom when it comes to safety, moving to find fish, or accepting my advise on how and what technique to catch fish.

 

Over my span I've written for four fly fishing magazines, 25 years of fly trade shows, club events showing off effective flies that are durable, effect, and catch fish. Not once have I published a fly that wasn't worthy of catching fish. All were seasoned on the water before publishing. I'm a no frills guy. I like to say I'm about performance first.

 

The Frenchtown Streamer Clouser without a doubt is the most effective saltwater fly I've ever designed. It's never been published, tied in public, given to anyone. It's my Ace in the hole when I'm on the water and I'm fishing competitive with others around. The only friends I share the recipe with are my clients only. That's the perk for coming onboard. In most cases I give them a few and forward the recipe, so that their other fishing trips can be a success.  So sorry I can't show or explain the pattern here. I have to protect my intellectual capital.

 

Here's a few stripes caught last week on the fly, The last picture is probably the biggest striper ever caught with the Frenchtown.  

20220708_113717.jpg

20220623_112546.jpg

IMG_1862a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to derail the thread, but I'd love to hear more about how you got started as a guide and developed it into a sustainable business. Perhaps even in a new thread if you're willing and that's too much of a derail.

 

I imagine the cost point prices out many who'd otherwise be interested, so I imagine finding a consistent flow of clientele when you first started must have been a nightmare. Would love to hear more about how you got started. I wholly understand if you choose not to answer in detail though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Capt.Castafly said:

This is my Silver Year Anniversary, 25 years of professional guiding in RI and nearby MA, and CT.

So many wonderful events, memories, time on the water, I wouldn't trade for anyone.

The list is endless the trophy fish caught on a feather, 1/0 single hook, and a little wimpy fly rod and 15 lbs. tippet.

I'm so blessed. I can only take some of the credit. It's the marriage, bond, confidence, and truly friendship of each of one of my loyal clients like Ted who I see year after year, progressing at a hobby they love. Catch rate and success is a combination of many things involving Captain and clients. The formula only works when everything is equal and nature does it's part. 

 

So much personal satisfaction watching friends attain their goals, catch their biggest treasure, having great number of successful trips.

I feel best and blessed that over the years, nobody had questioned my wisdom when it comes to safety, moving to find fish, or accepting my advise on how and what technique to catch fish.

 

Over my span I've written for four fly fishing magazines, 25 years of fly trade shows, club events showing off effective flies that are durable, effect, and catch fish. Not once have I published a fly that wasn't worthy of catching fish. All were seasoned on the water before publishing. I'm a no frills guy. I like to say I'm about performance first.

 

The Frenchtown Streamer Clouser without a doubt is the most effective saltwater fly I've ever designed. It's never been published, tied in public, given to anyone. It's my Ace in the hole when I'm on the water and I'm fishing competitive with others around. The only friends I share the recipe with are my clients only. That's the perk for coming onboard. In most cases I give them a few and forward the recipe, so that their other fishing trips can be a success.  So sorry I can't show or explain the pattern here. I have to protect my intellectual capital.

 

Here's a few stripes caught last week on the fly, The last picture is probably the biggest striper ever caught with the Frenchtown.  

20220708_113717.jpg

20220623_112546.jpg

IMG_1862a.jpg

I was talking to a nice Striper two years ago and he was thankful you released him. So I let him go also, on account of you! LOL  Nice work Ray. But BOOOOOOOO! Where's the fly? Talk about a tease. You're worse than a movie trailer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to register here in order to participate.

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.