jps1010

Call to Action for Striped Bass

Rate this topic

105 posts in this topic

19 mins ago, MichaelT said:

What many can’t understand is when you need the limit the public to one fish a day and now looking at further restriction how can you justify having a commercial season. 

Because of the 99% of the citizens of this country can't enjoy them, except for the commercial fishery?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 mins ago, MakoMike said:

Because of the 99% of the citizens of this country can't enjoy them, except for the commercial fishery?

So I guess they will have to do without stripers until the stock recovers to a level to justify commercial fishing again. There are other fish available. There are many types of fish and game that I can’t have unless I fish or hunt for them. There are many just can’t have at all. There is also the availability of farm raised fish, including stripers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Thank God Browns, Duskys and Sand Tigers are 100% protected. 

Heed the new DEC warning post at beach access points.

 

Screenshot_20190210-172715_Message+.jpg

Edited by the3fishheads

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MakoMike said:

 

And once again I'll tell you that the reason that many charter/party associations dislike McMurry has nothing to do with striped bass. It has everything to do with sea bass and scup where we have a biomass at close to 300% of the target biomass, yet the states refuse to even allow....... us ..........to land the federal limits, which are more generous than the states, and which have also brought us to this huge biomass. But McMurry refuses to support the relaxation of the ASMFC regs

Us?  

38 mins ago, MakoMike said:

Hey, go look, do background investigation, I have nothing to hide. I represent ME no one else.

I know I know you are just a hobbyist.  You simply enjoy going to these dreadful meetings and getting embroiled in these soul crushing battles all because you find defending the rights of the for hire fleet to kill everything thing that swims just a big barrel of laughs.  Sounds completely reasonable. :wave:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Are you kidding me? Seasons are shorter than they ever were, I can remember when there was no season, you could catch them whenever they showed up. Even Today the season in MA is in the spring, while the season in NY and RI is in the fall. 15 inch size limit is reasonable? 15 linch is a huge sea bass from a historical perspective. And you're allowed to keep all of three fish a day for most of the season? That "reasonable" for a fish that is 3 times its target biomass.

 

 

NY season runs from late June through the end of December. Prior to 9/1 it’s 3 fish & after its 7 fish. This isn’t enough? How many sea bass would you like to keep?  You’re also complaining about the 15” minimum. Assuming you’d like to keep smaller fish? If the biomass is at 3x target, it should be no problem catching plenty of 15” fish, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Hey, go look, do background investigation, I have nothing to hide. I represent ME no one else.

You do that very well...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Because of the 99% of the citizens of this country can't enjoy them, except for the commercial fishery?

99% of the people can't 'enjoy' wild game either. They do just fine without it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Things change, just like everything else in this world. Let's just focus on doing what's right now. I get it that you have a hard on for the charter/party fleet. But don't let that keep you from doing the right thing.

Many are trying to that very thing.

 

Except the for hire fleet. Those dinosaurs still want to catch every last fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, MakoMike said:

Are you kidding me? Seasons are shorter than they ever were, I can remember when there was no season, you could catch them whenever they showed up. Even Today the season in MA is in the spring, while the season in NY and RI is in the fall. 15 inch size limit is reasonable? 15 linch is a huge sea bass from a historical perspective. And you're allowed to keep all of three fish a day for most of the season? That "reasonable" for a fish that is 3 times its target biomass.

 

 

Any chance that you can refer me to an assessment, assessment update, etc. that says that the stock is at 300% of target?  Not speculation about the 2015s, but an actual data-based assessment?  

 

I never recall seeing one, and if there's something like that out there, I'd like to read it.

 

Also, could you point out any occasion when McMurray, while serving as a proxy at ASMFC, ever argued for fluke, scup or black sea bass management measures that were more restrictive than those recommended by the biologists on the relevant Technical Committee?  Again, I don't recall that happening, although maybe I missed a meeting.

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

2 hours ago, CWitek said:

Any chance that you can refer me to an assessment, assessment update, etc. that says that the stock is at 300% of target?  Not speculation about the 2015s, but an actual data-based assessment?  

 

I never recall seeing one, and if there's something like that out there, I'd like to read it.

 

Also, could you point out any occasion when McMurray, while serving as a proxy at ASMFC, ever argued for fluke, scup or black sea bass management measures that were more restrictive than those recommended by the biologists on the relevant Technical Committee?  Again, I don't recall that happening, although maybe I missed a meeting.

 

Thanks.

The 300% is a rough estimate of what we were shown at the last advisory panel meeting about the commercial sea bass fishery (IIRC it was about two weeks ago, but I can get you the exact date if you want it.) IIRC the actual number was around 285% of the target biomass. I assume it was based on the updated stock assessment which should be available on either the ASMFC or MAFMC (maybe both) website. 

 

FYI, sea bass are managed cooperatively by the MAFMC and the ASMFC, it's the NEFSC that does the stock assessment and it's the MAFMC SSC that sets the ACL and ABC for the fishery. The federal ACT for recreational fishermen allows the federal rules, which are coastwide, to be far more liberal than the ASMFC rules. For example IIRC the fed rules are for an open season from May 1st to Dec, 31st, a 13 inch size limit and  a 15 fish bag limit. Plus there is a bonus season during the first wave of the year (Jan. & Feb.) that any of the states can elect into. So far, I think VA is the only state to elect to fish in the first wave. The ASMFC imposes the same ACT but in a (imho misguided) effort to be "fair" to all of the states imposes much stricter limits in the northern zone, i.e. the states of MA, RI, CT and NY. While I have never heard McMurray speak about the limits at all, I have heard him vote for the limits proposed by the ASMFC, which IMHO is the same as supporting those more restrictive limits in the northern region. The last stock assessment showed that the fish are much more numerous in the northern zone than they are in the southern zone, though that may change with the entry of the 2015 cohort into the fishery. The 2015 cohort is said to be huge in both regions. IMHO "fairness" between the states means equality of rules and if the fish decide to congregate off one area and not another a state should not be penalized for it.

 

Just FYI the NEFSC also did the latest striped bass stock assessment.

Edited by MakoMike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 mins ago, MakoMike said:

The 300% is a rough estimate of what we were shown at the last advisory panel meeting about the commercial sea bass fishery (IIRC it was about two weeks ago, but I can get you the exact date if you want it.) IIRC the actual number was around 285% of the target biomass. I assume it was based on the updated stock assessment which should be available on either the ASMFC or MAFMC (maybe both) website. 

 

FYI, sea bass are managed cooperatively by the MAFMC and the ASMFC, it's the NEFSC that does the stock assessment and it's the MAFMC SSC that sets the ACL and ABC for the fishery. The federal ACT for recreational fishermen allows the federal rules, which are coastwide, to be far more liberal than the ASMFC rules. For example IIRC the fed rules are for an open season from May 1st to Dec, 31st, a 13 inch size limit and  a 15 fish bag limit. Plus there is a bonus season during the first wave of the year (Jan. & Feb.) that any of the states can elect into. So far, I think VA is the only state to elect to fish in the first wave. The ASMFC imposes the same ACT but in a (imho misguided) effort to be "fair" to all of the states imposes much stricter limits in the northern zone, i.e. the states of MA, RI, CT and NY. While I have never heard McMurray speak about the limits at all, I have heard him vote for the limits proposed by the ASMFC, which IMHO is the same as supporting those more restrictive limits in the northern region. The last stock assessment showed that the fish are much more numerous in the northern zone than they are in the southern zone, though that may change with the entry of the 2015 cohort into the fishery. The 2015 cohort is said to be huge in both regions. IMHO "fairness" between the states means equality of rules and if the fish decide to congregate off one area and not another a state should not be penalized for it.

 

Just FYI the NEFSC also did the latest striped bass stock assessment.

So where we are is that we know that the sea bass biomass is quite high, but probably not as high as 300%, and we won't know just how high it is until the assessment update comes out in August.

 

And yes, the ACT is set by the MAFMC, but the ASMFC technical committee than allocates the recreational ACT in accordance with a formula that the Summer Flounder, Scup and Black Sea Bass Management Board agrees upon.  The technical committee also passes on the state regulations, which are designed to keep harvest within the ACT and prevent overfishing.  And yes, the fish are more numerous in the northern zone, but so are landings.  For example, in 2016 (I picked that year for no better reason that I had already done the breakdown for other purposes), the states between NY and MA landed 53% of the black sea bass (by number), NJ landed 38%, and the states between DE and NC landed the rest.

 

So what McMurray, and the majority of the others who sat on the Management Board, actually voted for, were measures designed to prevent overfishing, which was only prudent.  If the northern states were allowed to fish under the federal regulations that exist today, the stock would be subject to severe overfishing.  So the only way to make the rules "fair" across the species range would not be to increase the kill in the north, but to apply the northern rules to the southern states, to reduce their landings even further.  Which I'm sure would cause cries of "unfairness" down there.  

 

But the point is that McMurray's votes were not only in the majority, but in the best long term interests in the health of the stocks.  The folks looking to replace him would want to see a proxy who ignores scientific advice and would support overfishing, in order to support their short-term business goals.  We see that sort of approach to science regularly at meetings here in New York, where they frequently make such intellectually robust and data-driven statements as "We think your science is bullcrap" and "My experience on the water is worth 1,000 times more than your science."  They want to get rid of McMurray so they can bring that level of thoughtfulness and scientific rigor to the debate at ASMFC.

 

I will say that i think that NJ should have been made a part of the northern group of states, as they fish on the same fish as western Long Island during the summer, and fish on northern fish during the winter, but the vote went the other way.  I do believe that there is a level of unfairness in that.  But as to the southern states, I don't think that there is anything unfair at all.  Whether you rely on the tagging study done a few years ago, which broke the fish managed by the MAFMC into three sub-stocks that do not mix during the summer (northern, from around Moriches Inlet north, central, from Moriches to the DelMarVa Penninsula, and southern, off southern Virginia and northern North Carolina) or the stock assessment, which broke it down into northern and southern components separated by Hudson Canyon, the southern states, where the federal regulations apply, are fishing on a different body of fish than the northern states; regulations appropriate for each body of fish aren't unfair, they're just good management.

 

Although, as I say, New Jersey remains a problem.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 mins ago, CWitek said:

But the point is that McMurray's votes were not only in the majority, but in the best long term interests in the health of the stocks.  The folks looking to replace him would want to see a proxy who ignores scientific advice and would support overfishing, in order to support their short-term business goals.  We see that sort of approach to science regularly at meetings here in New York, where they frequently make such intellectually robust and data-driven statements as "We think your science is bullcrap" and "My experience on the water is worth 1,000 times more than your science."  They want to get rid of McMurray so they can bring that level of thoughtfulness and scientific rigor to the debate at ASMFC.

 

 

 

 

 

Very well said - thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

@CWitek

I simply do not agree. You and I have often said that we wish striped bass were managed by the feds because then, and only then would the species management be governed by the requirements of the MSA. The ASMFC has, time and time again, voted to allow overfishing to occur and to allow a species to remain in an overfished status without a rebuilding plan. Just look at striped bass and tautog. I'm perfectly fine with allowing the MAFMC SSC to make the decision on how to manage the species in accordance with the MSA. They don't need any help from the ASMFC.

 

What McMurray and his fellow commissioners are doing is to divide the total ACT between the state in an unfair manner. You can't seriously tell me that its "fair" to allow anglers who fish from DE to NC to have one very liberal set of rules and the poor guys who fish in the northern region have a much more restrictive set of rules. RI regs just came out today, season starts in JULY 1st and goes to Oct. 1 at 3 fish over 15 inches then it jumps up to a astounding 5 fish per day! Meanwhile someone fishing out of VA has a season from Mar. 1 to Dec. 31st, and is allowed to catch 15 fish over 13 inches for the entire season! Does that seem "fair" to you? Evidently it seems vary fair to McMurray and his fellow commissioners. 

 

Again, IMHO the ASMFC doesn't give a big rat's ass about what's best for the fish, they have proved it time and time again. So don't try and tell me that the ASMFC is only trying to do what's best for the fish. I'll trust the feds to do that. What the ASMFC is doing is to keep the old line states happy, and NC, VA, MD, DE, PA, PRFC, and NJ will always outvote the states of NY, RI, CT and MA,  to prevent penalizing their anglers. 

 

And we are all fishing the same "body" of fish under the MSA which requires all species to be managed as one unit absent compelling evidence of a geographically specific population of that fishery. GSP status of north vs south was specifically turned down by the SARC, and that is the best available science.

 

And just to be clear about this, I don't really care what the reasons are for wanting him replaced, but I suspect it's because he is from NY and NY anglers, all anglers, not just the charter/party fleet are being shortchanged by his refusal to challenge the generally accepted reason as to why they are being shortchanged. BTW- The exact same argument applies to scup. 

Edited by MakoMike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to register here in order to participate.

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.