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OUT / IN Game - Wiretap—> Surveillance—> Spying Edition

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[As noted at bottom, this will be my last started discussion for some time]

 

Hey, anyone notice how quickly this transition happened? Or slowly, as the case might be. 

 

OUT: Trump was never wiretapped. 

 

OUT: OK, maybe he was surveilled but that was because there was hard evidence of his colluding with Russians. Oligarchs, bank records, server connections, overseas trips - it was all so evident. 

 

OUT: OK, Trump WAS under surveillance but  it was all justified (see above). And it was because of Carter Page traveling to Russia and giving a speech (verified in the Dossier) and anyway, that began after he left the campaign. So it was about Page and not Trump. 

 

OUT: OK, maybe the surveillance started earlier than previously disclosed in July 2016, but it was still justified because Trump collided with Russians (see above). 

 

OUT: Uh, well, uh, Mueller found no collusion but the US IC can’t be faulted for seeing the evidence and believing there was probably cause for the warrants and surveillance. 

 

IN: It was not “spying”, it was “surveillance” and Barr has no evidence or he would have shared it. But but hit, Barr is conducting a coverup and he is accusing the US IC of possible abuses just to score points with his boss. But the process as all legit, the FISA court process is infallible. 

 

COMING: Uh, well, after reading the Mueller report, maybe that earlier evidence was not really accurate and was not really evidence. But the US IC was working with a noble mission and a “better safe than sorry” perspective. And don’t forget all those unsavory things Trump did as mentioned by Mueller report. 

 

AFTER THAT: Uh, well, um, IG Horowitz has pointed out that some limited number of loyal and well-meaning, but overly enthusiastic, people at DOJ and FBI may have exaggerated the evidence in the FISA applications and may have omitted information that would have put what they did offer in a better light. Yeah, that’s not so good, but they meant well. Uh, what did you say? Barr’s team has uncovered hundreds of previously undisclosed emails? .......

 

 

Feel free to offer your own versions of what might be coming in the future. 

 

====================

 

As an aside, after this post, I am taking a self-imposed sabbatical from starting new discussions in the PG. Not sure how long that will be, and it will be tough with the Mueller report to be released, but I am just not enjoying this forum anymore. I am not being driven away by the trolls. Candidly, this is in part because I have become meaner than I really am (sorry @BrianBM about the past two days) and this morning I started an idiotic thread without researching the matter further. 

 

Also, I will be commenting less frequently, though I will see this post through to the point where someone really details it. 

 

This is not an LPE, just that I am going to focus on other stuff for awhile. Not sure how long that will last. Could be days, weeks or more. And I should still be semi-active in the Photo, Flyfishing, Florida subs, and maybe even the Tavern. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by tomkaz

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2 mins ago, tomkaz said:

[As noted at bottom, this will be my last started discussion for some time]

 

Hey, anyone notice how quickly this transition happened? Or slowly, as the case might be. 

 

OUT: Trump was never wiretapped. 

 

OUT: OK, maybe he was surveilled but that was because there was hard evidence of his colluding with Russians. Oligarchs, bank records, server connections, overseas trips - it was all so evident. 

 

OUT: OK, Trump WAS under surveillance but  it was all justified (see above). And it was because of Carter Page traveling to Russia and giving a speech (verified in the Dossier) and anyway, that began after he left the campaign. So it was about Page and not Trump. 

 

OUT: OK, maybe the surveillance started earlier than previously disclosed in July 2016, but it was still justified because Trump collided with Russians (see above). 

 

OUT: Uh, well, uh, Mueller found no collusion but the US IC can’t be faulted for seeing the evidence and believing there was probably cause for the warrants and surveillance. 

 

IN: It was not “spying”, it was “surveillance” and Barr has no evidence or he would have shared it. But but hit, Barr is conducting a coverup and he is accusing the US IC of possible abuses just to score points with his boss. But the process as all legit, the FISA court process is infallible. 

 

COMING: Uh, well, after reading the Mueller report, maybe that earlier evidence was not really accurate and was not really evidence. But the US IC was working with a noble mission and a “better safe than sorry” perspective. And don’t forget all those unsavory things Trump did as mentioned by Mueller report. 

 

AFTER THAT: Uh, well, um, IG Horowitz has pointed out that some limited number of loyal and well-meaning, but overly enthusiastic, people at DOJ and FBI may have exaggerated the evidence in the FISA applications and may have omitted information that would have put what they did offer in a better light. Yeah, that’s not so good, but they meant well. Uh, what did you say? Barr’s team has uncovered hundreds of previously undisclosed emails? .......

 

 

Feel free to offer your own versions of what might be coming in the future. 

 

====================

 

As an aside, after this post, I am taking a self-imposed sabbatical from starting new discussions in the PG. Not sure how long that will be, and it will be tough with the Mueller report to be released, but I am just not enjoying this forum anymore. I am not being driven away by the trolls. Candidly, this is in part because I have become meaner than I really am (sorry @brianm  about the past two days) and this morning I started an idiotic thread without researching the matter further. 

 

Also, I will be commenting less frequently, though I will see this post through to the point where someone really details it. 

 

This is not an LPE, just that I am going to focus on other stuff for awhile. Not sure how long that will last. Could be days, weeks or more. And I should still be semi-active in the Photo, Flyfishing, Florida subs, and maybe even the Tavern. 

 

 

It's hard to predict how they will twist words and try and explain things away in the coming days and weeks, but it will be entertaining!

 

Enjoy a little "down time" and come back refreshed.  It will do wonders for your sanity, not to mention having some extra time for other forums, or other things in general for that matter :) 

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My guess is that the Democrats will never accept anything less than Trump being gone. They'll continue their insane actions and statements. Maybe they should just wait 6 more years and they'll have their wish.

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2 hours ago, Flybyme said:

Enjoy the Justice phase it is going to be fun to watch.

this is going to be the hard part.  these are evil people that have been doing evil and illegal things for years.  they're good at covering their own a$$es.  This is from Conservative Tree House.  it explains they're "out" through all the illegal things they were doing.  "We thought he was a russian agent"  As stupid as that sounds, that will be their defense.  

 

REMINDER: Susan Rice’s Justification Memo and James Comey Investigation Memos – Beware The Outrage Trap…

 

 

With the Mueller probe complete; with AG Barr announcing a focus to review the intelligence operation in 2016; with Devin Nunes submitting criminal referrals; with Lindsey Graham probing CIA, DOJ and FBI conduct; with Doug Collins releasing ‘Spygate’ transcripts; with Inspector General Michael Horowitz closing in on the final stages of his FISA abuse investigation; and with President Trump contemplating declassification of documents applying sunlight on the Russia collusion/conspiracy hoax; there is an outrage trap which must be avoided….

The issue(s) surround President Obama and high-ranking Obama intelligence officials, notably: John Brennan, James Comey, James Clapper and Sally Yates intentionally lying and/or misrepresenting issues to president-elect Donald Trump and the transition team in/around the transition period and shortly after the January 20, 2017, inauguration.

Some of the misinformation stems from intelligence officials telling direct lies (ex. telling President-elect, and President Trump he was not under investigation). Other aspects were lies of omission surrounding the Steele Dossier during the January 6th, 2017, intelligence briefing session with the President-elect in Trump Tower.

In essence, there were many misleading and false statements, with varying scales of severity, during the period from November 9th, 2016, through mid-May 2017 when President Trump fired FBI Director James Comey.

The FBI, DOJ, ODNI, CIA and intelligence officials were intentionally not being direct and honest with President Trump and key members of his new administration. Obviously their lack of honesty was a serious issue, and in some cases had serious ramifications.

The expressed finding by Robert Mueller’s two-year probe of ‘no Trump-Russia collusion, no Trump-Russia conspiracy, and no Trump-Russia obstruction’ has led to some hindsight reviews where anger surfaces about the now visible deception.  However, there is a trap laid here and Democrats are hoping outraged voices will walk straight into it. Some are already getting very close.

At 12:15pm on January 20th, 2017, Obama’s outgoing National Security Advisor Susan Rice wrote a memo-to-self. Many people have called this her “CYA” (cover your ass) memo, from the position that Susan Rice was protecting herself from consequences if the scheme against President Trump was discovered. Here’s the email:

On January 5, following a briefing by IC leadership on Russian hacking during the 2016 Presidential election, President Obama had a brief follow-on conversation with FBI Director Jim Corney and Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates in the Oval Office. Vice President Biden and I were also present.

President Obama began the conversation by stressing his continued commitment to ensuring that every aspect of this issue is handled by the Intelligence and law enforcement communities “by the book“.

The President stressed that he is not asking about, initiating or instructing anything from a law enforcement perspective. He reiterated that our law enforcement team needs to proceed as it normally would by the book.

From a national security perspective, however, President Obama said he wants to be sure that, as we engage with the incoming team, we are mindful to ascertain if there is any reason that we cannot share information fully as it relates to Russia.

[Redacted Classified Section of Unknown length]

The President asked Corney to inform him if anything changes in the next few weeks that should affect how we share classified information with the incoming team. Corney said he would.

Susan Rice ~ (pdf link)

As stated, many have looked at this as a “CYA” memo, but that’s not what this is.

This is a justification memo, written by an outgoing National Security Advisor Susan Rice to document why there have been multiple false and misleading statements given to the incoming President Trump and all of his officials.

This is not a “CYA” memo, this is a justification memo for use AFTER the Trump-Russia collusion/conspiracy narrative collapsed; if the impeachment effort failed.

The “By The Book” aspect refers to President Obama and Susan Rice being told by CIA Director John Brennan, FBI Director James Comey, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, and Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, that President Trump was the subject of an active counterintelligence investigation to determine if he was under the influence of the Russian government.

Even the timing of the memo, written 15 minutes prior to the end of the Obama administration, is ex-post-facto useful as evidence of the author’s intent.

Put aside the nonsense aspect to the origination of the investigation for a moment; that part doesn’t apply here…. Accept their position ‘as if’ it is substantive.

We are talking about Brennan, Comey, Clapper and Yates telling President Obama and NSA Susan Rice that President-elect Trump is under a counterintelligence investigation where the suspicion is that Donald J Trump is an agent of a foreign power.

Under that auspices (fraudulent though it may be) the incoming President is a counterintelligence investigation target. A potentially compromised Russian asset. Under this auspices all of the officials would be permitted to lie and mislead their target, so long as they did so “By The Book.”

That’s their justification for a lengthy series of lies and false statements.

That’s why FBI Director James Comey can lie to the President and tell him he’s not the target of the ongoing Russia investigation. That’s the justification for keeping the accusations inside the Steele Dossier (remember, the Dossier is evidence) from the President-elect. That’s the justification for all of the officials to lie to President Trump, and even mislead the media if needed.

The Susan Rice email is one big Justification Letter; setting the stage for all of the participants to have a plausible reason for lies to anyone and everyone.

Call out John Brennan for telling Harry Reid about the Steele Dossier during his gang-of-eight briefing, but not telling Go8 member Devin Nunes about it. Brennan escapes by saying Nunes was on the Trump transition team; and briefing a conflicted politician on the dossier would have compromised the FBI investigation. See how that works?

Call out James Comey for lying to President-elect Trump during the January 6th Trump Tower meeting…. Comey escapes by saying Trump was a target of the FBI investigation for potential compromise as a Russian asset; informing the target of the evidence against him would have compromised the investigation. See how that works?

Every lie, every omission, every false and/or misleading statement, must first be filtered through the “By The Book” prism of Trump being considered a Russian asset. This is the justification trap democrats are waiting to exploit for maximum damage and diminishment of counter attack.

The “By the Book” justification, where every action could have been taken because Trump might have been an actual Russian operative, is the weapon under the camouflage tarp as the radical left lures-in their political opposition. They shrug their shoulders and say in condescending voice: ‘well, we didn’t know; we had to be prudent‘, etc.

Getting outraged about the Obama administration’s lies, misstatements and fabrications can backfire if you don’t first think about it from their constructed frame-of-reference.

The ‘By-the-Book’ framework is based on a false-premise; but the action, just about any action, taken to mislead (even undermine) the incoming administration is excusable under this carefully crafted justification memo. That’s exactly why Susan Rice wrote it; and each of the participating members knows they can use it, when needed.

The way to get around the legal and political defense inside this justification memo is to ignore the activity of those protected by it and go directly to the origin of how they created that false premise in the first place:

♦ Prove the July 31st, 2016, Crossfire Hurricane operation originated from fraud by exposing the CIA operation that created the originating “Electronic Communication” memo. Declassify that two-page “EC” document that Brennan gave to Comey.

♦ Release and declassify all of the Comey memos that document the investigative steps taken  by the FBI as an outcome of the operation coordinated by CIA Director John Brennan in early 2016.

♦ Reveal the November 2015 through April 2016 FISA-702 search query abuse by declassifying the April 2017 court opinion written by FISC Presiding Judge Rosemary Collyer. Show the FBI contractors behind the 85% fraudulent search queries. [Crowdstrike? Fusion-GPS? Nellie Ohr?]

♦ Subpoena former DOJ-NSD (National Security Division) head John Carlin, or haul him in front of a grand jury, and get his testimony about why he hid the abuse from the FISA court in October 2016; why the DOJ-NSD rushed the Carter Page application to beat NSA Director Admiral Mike Rogers to the FISA court; and why Carlin quit immediately thereafter. Squeeze this bastard’s nuts in the proverbial legal vice.

♦ Prove the Carter Page FISA application (October 2016) was fraudulent and based on deceptions to the FISA Court. Declassify the entire document, and release the transcripts of those who signed the application(s); and/or depose those who have not yet testified.

♦ Release all of the Lisa Page and Peter Strzok text messages without redactions. Let sunlight pour in on the actual conversation(s) that were taking place when Crossfire Hurricane (July ’16) and the FISA Application (Oct ’16) were taking place.

♦ Release all of Bruce Ohr 302’s, FBI notes from interviews and debriefing sessions, and other relevant documents associated with the interviews of Bruce Ohr and his internal communications. Including exculpatory evidence that Bruce Ohr may have shared with FBI Agent Joseph Pientka. [And get a deposition from this Pientka fella]

♦ Release the August 2nd, 2017, two-page scope memo provided by DAG Rod Rosenstein to special counsel Robert Mueller to advance the fraudulent Trump investigation, and initiate the more purposeful obstruction of justice investigation.

In short, avoid the “justification trap” by ignoring the downstream activity (stemming as a result of the fraudulent origin), and focus on revealing the origin of the fraud.

 

Edited by TimS
Please copy/paste as plain text or remove all the links from whatever you paste here - see the thread at top of page - thanks

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I was told that I wasn’t being my normal a while back. Cancelled cable tv and like magic, I changed. The news folks want you to get mad so you will sit through the commercials. It’s like a cumulative effect. Take a break and recharge and focus on being a nice guy for a while. Go fishing.

 

You were starting a lot of threads.

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37 mins ago, FishinMortician said:

I was told that I wasn’t being my normal a while back. Cancelled cable tv and like magic, I changed. The news folks want you to get mad so you will sit through the commercials. It’s like a cumulative effect. Take a break and recharge and focus on being a nice guy for a while. Go fishing.

I have a long surf fly rod I need to finish building. And my beach fat tire bikes needs tires swapped and more. And my “shop” needs a long overdue cleanup and organizing. And my wife wants to take nightly walks around the lake near our house. Plenty to do. 

 

 

37 mins ago, FishinMortician said:

You were starting a lot of threads.

It wasn’t the volume that was the issue, it was the lack of enjoyment from doing so. And worse, being nasty to a guy who did not deserve that degree of snark, just for being wrong. 

 

Thanks. 

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TomKaz, no problem.  I like you, there aren't a lot of crackpotty right wing people with good writing skills :p and I know you to be an honest man.

 

When you come back from whatever sabbatical you take, we'll have two interesting Democrats under indictment to discuss, attorney Craig (caught up with Manafort) and one of the Podestas, I forget which. 

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4 mins ago, BrianBM said:

TomKaz, no problem.  I like you, there aren't a lot of crackpotty right wing people with good writing skills :p and I know you to be an honest man.

 

When you come back from whatever sabbatical you take, we'll have two interesting Democrats under indictment to discuss, attorney Craig (caught up with Manafort) and one of the Podestas, I forget which. 

Tony, Skippy has his own issues with giving Russian stock shares to daughter...........

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Well, fine. 

 

Skadden Arps, a megafirm with hundreds of lawyers that was Craig's home at the time, has had to register retroactively as a foreign lobbyist and pay a forfeiture of $4.5 million, the sum of the money paid them by Ukraine for whatever Craig was doing at the time. The details of what he was doing for Ukraine, or some Ukrainian politician, will be interesting.

 

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42 mins ago, BrianBM said:

Well, fine. 

 

Skadden Arps, a megafirm with hundreds of lawyers that was Craig's home at the time, has had to register retroactively as a foreign lobbyist and pay a forfeiture of $4.5 million, the sum of the money paid them by Ukraine for whatever Craig was doing at the time. The details of what he was doing for Ukraine, or some Ukrainian politician, will be interesting.

 

 This is actually a very big deal. The entire lobbying effort that includes foreign clients, which is the majority of K St., is now at risk. If they really want to pursue this they could put a lot of pain into a lot of firms. Influence by foreigners is all about the money. It’ll be interesting to watch this one play out. 

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4 hours ago, FishinMortician said:

I was told that I wasn’t being my normal a while back. Cancelled cable tv and like magic, I changed. The news folks want you to get mad so you will sit through the commercials. It’s like a cumulative effect. Take a break and recharge and focus on being a nice guy for a while. Go fishing.

 

You were starting a lot of threads.

Cancelling cable TV is such a good thing.  I found we had LOS (Line Of Sight) access to Philly, despite being on a ridge in Lancaster County, so up went the antenna, cut the cable, and stress was reduced.

 

I found similar relief from stress by staying out of PG for a month ;) 

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