SkunkExtinction

Is my setup correct?

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Wow!  Lots of good although confusing information here....I'd be shocked if the OP has not already put the equipment up for sale and switched to a surf rod! :-)

My summary is as follows:

 - Get another fly line (intermediate or sinking) that is an integrated forward taper.  Nothing fancy, find it used. Go one line size up for your rod.  Use the chart posted as a guide

 - Get a stripping basket

 - Go to a field or park with no people, dogs or trees and practice casting there.  Make sure you put a leader on the end of you fly line to protect it. 6' of mono is fine. Pick a day with little wind

-  Start learning to cast with a max or 30' or so of line in the air.  Don't do a lot of false casting.  Strip in the line, roll out about 25' or so, cast forward, then back and shot the line of the forward cast.

- Don't worry about the double haul initially.  Get use to shooting line.  If you are using a two hander then don't worry about the double haul at all.

- Master that on the grass.

- Repeat and have fun

 

For what it is worth a lot of fish can be found in skinny water 30 - 40' from where you are standing.

 

 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I've been reading this thread and scratching my head.  No wonder the OP is confused. 

 

Simply put - there is no single "correct" set-up for any specific rod.  Because not all rods are correctly rated, a general guide is to first determine the actual power of the rod for it's intended use(s).  The number of grains (more accurately what range of grains) that the rod can handle will be different if used  a) single hand casting with line normally rated to match the rod (+/- 1 weight), b) single spey casting with water contact, or c) with shooting heads and/or lengths of T material and a thin running line (aka "chuck and duck" casting).

 

You can only determine what works by testing it out in each of the three (a, b, c) scenarios above.

 

You might find that it likes to be used with a 9wt line for general single hand casting (scenario a) even though it is marked as an 8wt.  Or it may like to be underlined.   Then you might want to overline it by 2-3 line weights to use it for single hand spey (assuming you want to try that).   With shooting heads, it's another story altogether.  Casting shooting heads is unlike the first two scenarios and is very dependent on your abilities and the length/weight of shooting head.  The longer and heavier the shooting head the more you need to refine your abilities.  I'd not want to use a shooting head more than 30' long weighing more than 330g on a 10' rod 8wt rod that is correctly rated as an 8wt, but that's just me.  You may be able to handle more or less.

 

330g is 30' of T-11.  Get some T-11 and try it.  Not expensive to test it that way before you decide on a final weight range of shooting heads.  Check out the rio custom cut heads or make your own heads from scratch.

Edited by Killiefish
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Posted (edited) · Report post

Crunch: 

Thanks for the flashback to my graduate school days when I always had to be sure to include my citations.  I the below video, I suggest to pay particular attention to minute 2:03 as the citation for my second paragraph, and, if you watch the rest of the video, you will see the citation for my prescribed practice method.  The neat thing about this video is you can ask an Orvis expert any questions you might have.

 

 

Edited by FlatWing

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1 hour ago, FlatWing said:

Crunch: 

Thanks for the flashback to my graduate school days when I always had to be sure to include my citations.  I the below video, I suggest to pay particular attention to minute 2:03 as the citation for my second paragraph, and, if you watch the rest of the video, you will see the citation for my prescribed practice method.  The neat thing about this video is you can ask an Orvis expert any questions you might have.

 

 

That video is not bad but he is wrong what comes to rod load and hauling and its benefit! His forward cast hauls come so late that rod has began straightening which is good but obviously he does not recognize it? No doubt the haul slows down rod straightening but best haul is began late and not finished before rod has reached Rod Straight Position 1.

 

Esa

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Esa:

Here's another video for you, so that you can state that this instructor (Lefty Kreh) is likewise wrong in his assertion that hauling increases the bend, and hence the load on the rod.  As for me, I am willing to offer that we can agree to disagree.  Enjoy the video - having taken a lesson from Lefty, I remember him, with fondness, as having always been an amicable gentleman, RIP Lefty.

 

 

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Flatwing

 

No doubting the huge contribution that Lefty made to the sport of fly fishing and fly casting. He was the man that I certainly  turned to when I started and still do in his books and videos.

 

Esa comes from a new order of Casters many of whome are also greatly respected for their knowledge. Many of these guys are compition Casters competing on the world stage and many will not be using the same techniques to the letter that Lefty taught. Principles don’t change physics don’t change. Maybe our knowledge and understanding has grown as time has past.

If you look at videos by compition Casters and Paul Arden comes to mind you can clearly see how their technique differs. It is not easy to accept new info when as individuals we bought heavily into our past Mentors. It is uncomfortable very uncomfortable to have old belief sets challenged.

More so when it becomes not just a matter of opinion  but of fact.

Vast majority I think tend to quote others when it comes to disscussions  like this but how many of us self included are able or prepared  to prove what we are told is in fact accurate and yet we will defend it tooth and nail.

 

Mike

 

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9 hours ago, FlatWing said:

Esa:

Here's another video for you, so that you can state that this instructor (Lefty Kreh) is likewise wrong in his assertion that hauling increases the bend, and hence the load on the rod.  As for me, I am willing to offer that we can agree to disagree.  Enjoy the video - having taken a lesson from Lefty, I remember him, with fondness, as having always been an amicable gentleman, RIP Lefty.

 

 

There is not nice way to say it but so far you and both recent video casters are not right what comes to good haul. You are right saying when haul is began during casting stroke acceleration it increase rod bend but wrong saying it has positive effect.

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2 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Flatwing

 

No doubting the huge contribution that Lefty made to the sport of fly fishing and fly casting. He was the man that I certainly  turned to when I started and still do in his books and videos.

 

Esa comes from a new order of Casters many of whome are also greatly respected for their knowledge. Many of these guys are compition Casters competing on the world stage and many will not be using the same techniques to the letter that Lefty taught. Principles don’t change physics don’t change. Maybe our knowledge and understanding has grown as time has past.

If you look at videos by compition Casters and Paul Arden comes to mind you can clearly see how their technique differs. It is not easy to accept new info when as individuals we bought heavily into our past Mentors. It is uncomfortable very uncomfortable to have old belief sets challenged.

More so when it becomes not just a matter of opinion  but of fact.

Vast majority I think tend to quote others when it comes to disscussions  like this but how many of us self included are able or prepared  to prove what we are told is in fact accurate and yet we will defend it tooth and nail.

 

Mike

 

Yes Mike, understanding casting mechanism has advanced since that Lefty video. His haul timing is good but obviously he spoke what he thought was happening.

 

I tried to post direct link to Paul Arden double haul, fishing and competition distance casting videos where he speaks of hauling but they are on Vimeo and I couldn't link them but they are easy to find doing search using "fly casting masterclass"

 

One of my practice thrills is to aerialize DT4F line and I use permanent pen to mark the length I can keep in the air from my line hand and length keeps increasing best when I delay my hauls. Also getting tracking better but it has less effect and when I get it good I quess it is as good as it gets. Changing rods which ratings are #6...#10 has so small effect that even slightest wind which there is when casting outdoors has more influence. #5 rod it too soft to carry as much line and #12 rod shortens my carry too but I think not because it is too stiff but because it is too heavy. But when I deliver and shoot the line then using my Helios 9ft #10 there occacionally comes a bit longer cast!

 

Esa

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What a freakin can of worms I opened :worms:. I am maybe slightly less confused as before, but there is definitely some great information in this thread. I get that an integrated fly line and a shooting head system are different. However, in my mind, the only difference is the mono running line which may be harder to handle. In theory, couldn’t and shouldn’t you cast the two lines in the same manner? 

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3 hours ago, SkunkExtinction said:

What a freakin can of worms I opened :worms:. I am maybe slightly less confused as before, but there is definitely some great information in this thread. I get that an integrated fly line and a shooting head system are different. However, in my mind, the only difference is the mono running line which may be harder to handle. In theory, couldn’t and shouldn’t you cast the two lines in the same manner? 

I cast them the same way. I coil shooting/running line to line hand fingers while I fish/strip line and when I reach the point I know I can haul the best I grip that between line hand thumb and index finger base. Then I continue fishing and strip fly so close that I can pull it to decent back cast without hauling and that point I clamp against the handle using rod hand index finger. I begin the cast lifting rod to free as much line as possible. When there is strong head wind I release the line under rod hand index finger and line head shoots out while I drift. Then smooth delivery casting stroke and late haul which length and speed define the cast length and I open line hand fingers wide and line shoots out. When tail wind, side wind or no wind I usually do one false cast cycle and release the line head to first forward false cast. I rarely use stripping basket and usually only when water contains vegetation.

 

This is fly fishing discussion forum, no worms unless you make fly line of them ;)

 

Esa

 

 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Not a can of worms just a healthy debate. Which has pulled up some very good videos.

 

If we could all cast like that then we would be pretty decent.

 

Skunk ok let me say off the bat that I can’t stand SH set ups. Ready made SH are mostly around 30 feet long. I fish beaches  a lot, often the wind is in my face. Short  head lines with slick running line do not perform very well into a head wind. The short head unrolls very quickly and this means distance wise it is not good and it tends to dump. It is not easy to shoot  line into a head wind. It is better to cast longer head lines when faced with a head wind.

SH cast with a friendly side wind or tail wind are very easy to cast short or long ways.

Ok your new. Line management is always an issue with mono in a line tray. Worse when there is wind which will try and spill the running line. In a sea with surf on it and wind honestly I would not suggest using a SH set up for new guys.

 

There are differences in casting a SH compared to a WF Integrated fly line.

Pointless going through them now. What you need before that discussion is to work on your cast and preferably to learn using a WF line. 

Many guys will tell you that you can learn to cast from videos and yes you can to a degree but you don’t know if you are doing it right or wrong. 

No substitute for lessons with a qualified teacher. Most of us tried to do it without. Net result majority of guys have pretty average casts at best.

Fundmental to fly fishing is the ability to put our fly to the fish and they are not always caught at our feet. Although a great many guys will insist that most fish are caught at less than 75 feet . Probably because that’s their max range. LOL. Why self limit when more is doable.

The good news is that learning how to fly cast is not difficult and it can be learned very quickly.

Right now you don’t need to understand the physics. Some of the best Casters don’t. They just know how to cast.

Keep it simple. It is not complicated unless you want to delve into the technical aspects.

 

mike

Edited by Mike Oliver

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Posted (edited) · Report post

To the OP:  Google casting sinking shooting heads (s/b first hit), watch video and also read about why you usually start with a heavier than rated head and cut it back.  I suggested 30 ft of T-11 as a starting point based on some experience with a normally rated 8wt, and a custom cut head that has those specs.  Unless your 8wt rod is significantly less powerful than a true rated 8wt, you will find that you can exactly match the rod with the method discussed at that website.  Cut only a little (no more than a foot) at a time....cut, cast, cut, cast and then maybe only cut by a smaller increment, until you get it just right.

 

30' x (T)11 = 330g

29' x11 = 319g

28' x11 = 308g

etc...

 

Airflo also has T-10 heads @ 30' so a bit lighter total head weight at each length above.   Personally I would not go much below 27.5', so around 275g to 300g with an 8wt.  If you need a lighter shooting head (for example if that 8wt is more of a 7wt in disguise) you can use T-10 material.  28.5' of T-10 is what I often use on my TFO TiCrx 7wt, which is more of a 7/8 wt rod.

 

Yes these heads tend to be short but they can be cast into wind and can cast and lay out straight at 90-100' without dumping if you get your timing right.

Edited by Killiefish

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