SkunkExtinction

Is my setup correct?

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43 posts in this topic

On 4/5/2019 at 8:07 PM, Mike Oliver said:

From a gear perspective give it is almost certain that the line is too much for your 7/8 rod.

 

I tend to disagree that casting SH is a piece of cake going by on what I observe on the beaches. Not an easy line for a new guy to learn with.

If you are not using a line tray that is going to be likely causing you problems to.

 

Your cast is probably the other major issue. Your new to the salt are you also new to fly casting.

 

If so you need to get your cast sorted out.

 

If you are from fresh water and have a cast that looks like most every guy I have seen that comes to the salt from the rivers you need to go and get your cast sorted out.

 

It is a totally different deal and you need a decent cast that uses an effective double haul timed properly.

 

Hope this helps

 

mike

Totally different casting as I am learning over the past year or so. My baby double haul is OK all day long with a 4# to 6# in a river, but my timing is forced once I get out into the open air with my 9#. Forced as in, I had better get working on it. Great advice above.

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12 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Jimmy. Good luck with that one. Redgreen has plenty of experience making affordable TH rods for the salt. Check out his thread on the rod building forum.

Search TH threads. Plenty on how to build from carp or spin blanks if budget is tight.

 

If that is new stuff for $100 then it will likely be junk and 100 wasted. You can do better.

 

Mike

i'll check him out---thanks:howdy:

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On 4/6/2019 at 3:42 AM, SkunkExtinction said:

Lately, I have been tight line nymphing with a mono line so I think that is helpful transitioning to a shooting head/running line setup

Speaking from experience, I can't imagine how it helps.  Tight line nymphing with a mono rig and fishing with a shooting head are so unlike one another that they are practically different sports.

 

I commend you on your choices though!

 

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54 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Yes absolutely that's what you want!

re-read your first post

so a single handed 9/10 weight rod would take a 7 wgt Rio  outbond short-head F ??

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45 mins ago, jimmythe bee said:

re-read your first post

so a single handed 9/10 weight rod would take a 7 wgt Rio  outbond short-head F ??

Yes, that's exactly right. That is assuming that rod isn't underrated. If it's a 9/10 it'd be pretty fair to assume it's an honest 9 or 10 wt rod.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

17 mins ago, RedGreen said:

Yes, that's exactly right. That is assuming that rod isn't underrated. If it's a 9/10 it'd be pretty fair to assume it's an honest 9 or 10 wt rod.

thanks   :howdy:  they have the rio for 50 bucks on amazon, can the tip extension be made with spare line at home?

or better to buy , i'm thinking inermediate

Edited by jimmythe bee

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7 hours ago, Squish said:

Speaking from experience, I can't imagine how it helps.  Tight line nymphing with a mono rig and fishing with a shooting head are so unlike one another that they are practically different sports.

 

I commend you on your choices though!

 

The similarity that I am thinking of is that your non casting hand is controlling (grabbing and stripping) a mono style line versus a traditional fly line. It is much thinner and slicker. I agree that the casting techniques between the two are totally different. I went out to a field to test the rod out in calm conditions. It definitely did not feel right. On the back cast the D loop would begin to collapse as it was moving backwards. My double haul definitely needs practice. It is a somewhat exhilarating  feeling when you can feel the power in the line ramp up from each successful haul. I am excited to try again with a more appropriate sized line. 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Understood...

Now...there is no need to be double haulin' with a shooting head.  This leads me to believe that you have far too much running line beyond the rod tip, and the reason you are having difficulties.

You are not using the system correctly.

Edited by Squish
'

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2 hours ago, SkunkExtinction said:

The similarity that I am thinking of is that your non casting hand is controlling (grabbing and stripping) a mono style line versus a traditional fly line. It is much thinner and slicker. I agree that the casting techniques between the two are totally different. I went out to a field to test the rod out in calm conditions. It definitely did not feel right. On the back cast the D loop would begin to collapse as it was moving backwards. My double haul definitely needs practice. It is a somewhat exhilarating  feeling when you can feel the power in the line ramp up from each successful haul. I am excited to try again with a more appropriate sized line. 

When casting only 30ft of line there should not be much need to double haul. Line is so short that you might make line loop straighten too fast and powerfully and line tip overshoots and there come waves to the line. However a single haul to delivery cast increase line speed which is good when cast is lengthened shooting line.

 

When you practice casting use just enough false cast power so that line loop straightens smoothly. High stops make false cast line loops narrower and delivery cast improves when it is executed from a good back cast. After high stop when long cast is launched it is essential to Drift so that delivery casting stroke comes wider and longer not to bend rod too much to prevent a Tailing Loop.

 

Best haul timing is very late when rod already has began to straighten and then haul accelerates line which already has achieved high speed. Too early haul tends to bend rod more and it is not good because rod bends other direction than the cast is aimed and line acceleration efficiency decrease! Too early haul also tends to finish when rod is still bent and when line tension drops fast and suddenly rising rod rip can also send a TL to the line.

 

Esa

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I don't really agree with the overall message of the above post.  Most single hand rod lines whether Floating, Intermediate, Sinking, integrated Head or looped-on head, have an ideal pick-up point when the distance from the end of the line to your hauling hand is 33-36 ft.  The choice to double haul or not is not dictated by the head length exceeding 30ft, but rather whether or not to maximize cast distance.  So, for instance, I do not haul when fishing Flatwings, as this will tend to foul the fly, especially the ones exceeding 6 inches in length.

 

To be technically correct, a double haul does not in itself accelerate the line, but rather increases the bend in the rod (thus storing more energy in the rod), which, when released, increases head speed as a result of increased acceleration imparted into the rod tip recovery (to the straight position).

 

A haul's timing is meant to coincide with the end of the "start-up and stop" casting stroke.  The stroke starts and gradually accelerates, with the maximum acceleration and sudden stop at the end of the stroke.  So the haul is then begun and executed in a fast, forceful pull and release as maximum acceleration of the rod tip is achieved, with the release coinciding with the sudden stop.  The effect of this, as I stated above is toincrease the rod bend (backwards on the forward stroke, and forwards on the back stroke) in the moment before the sudden stop.  The greater the rod bend, the more energy it has stored.

 

So here are the practice tips I earned from Lefty Kreh and Mike Corbliss - First, break down the cast into back cast and forward cast.  Do this by putting your haul hand into your pocket and holding the line (with the head outside the tip). Let the loop unroll and fall to the ground on each stroke, watching to see that your line and leader, with a hookless fly attached (very important) lays out absolutely straight each time. When it does, you will have perfected the gradual acceleration and sudden stop of each stroke.  Second phase is to combine the two strokes, building up to where you are doing sets of repetitious back and forward strokes to build muscle memory.  Only when you have no tailing loops, the hookless feather is not hitting the line, etc, should you proceed with incorporating the haul without shooting line.  The final level is to incorporate hauling and shooting line on both strokes before shooting out the cast on your forward stroke.  The culmination of this final level is to learn to shoot the cast on both the forward and back cast, with the latter coming into play when the wind is at your casting arm (i.e., from the right if your right handed).  In New Jersey we call that the Barnegat Bay Cast. I would add a link, but it is a .com, so I suggest you google it if you want more detail.

 

When I practice casting, even though I have been Fly Casting Salt Water (exclusively) for 26+ years, I always begin my session by training muscle memory, as I outlined in the above paragraph.  Fly Fishing, especially in the chaotic conditions of the surf, can instill bad casting habits that need to be erased by casting practice, hence the return to the beginning.

 

Hope this helps.

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11 hours ago, FlatWing said:

I don't really agree with the overall message of the above post.  Most single hand rod lines whether Floating, Intermediate, Sinking, integrated Head or looped-on head, have an ideal pick-up point when the distance from the end of the line to your hauling hand is 33-36 ft.  The choice to double haul or not is not dictated by the head length exceeding 30ft, but rather whether or not to maximize cast distance.  So, for instance, I do not haul when fishing Flatwings, as this will tend to foul the fly, especially the ones exceeding 6 inches in length.

 

To be technically correct, a double haul does not in itself accelerate the line, but rather increases the bend in the rod (thus storing more energy in the rod), which, when released, increases head speed as a result of increased acceleration imparted into the rod tip recovery (to the straight position).

 

A haul's timing is meant to coincide with the end of the "start-up and stop" casting stroke.  The stroke starts and gradually accelerates, with the maximum acceleration and sudden stop at the end of the stroke.  So the haul is then begun and executed in a fast, forceful pull and release as maximum acceleration of the rod tip is achieved, with the release coinciding with the sudden stop.  The effect of this, as I stated above is toincrease the rod bend (backwards on the forward stroke, and forwards on the back stroke) in the moment before the sudden stop.  The greater the rod bend, the more energy it has stored.

 

So here are the practice tips I earned from Lefty Kreh and Mike Corbliss - First, break down the cast into back cast and forward cast.  Do this by putting your haul hand into your pocket and holding the line (with the head outside the tip). Let the loop unroll and fall to the ground on each stroke, watching to see that your line and leader, with a hookless fly attached (very important) lays out absolutely straight each time. When it does, you will have perfected the gradual acceleration and sudden stop of each stroke.  Second phase is to combine the two strokes, building up to where you are doing sets of repetitious back and forward strokes to build muscle memory.  Only when you have no tailing loops, the hookless feather is not hitting the line, etc, should you proceed with incorporating the haul without shooting line.  The final level is to incorporate hauling and shooting line on both strokes before shooting out the cast on your forward stroke.  The culmination of this final level is to learn to shoot the cast on both the forward and back cast, with the latter coming into play when the wind is at your casting arm (i.e., from the right if your right handed).  In New Jersey we call that the Barnegat Bay Cast. I would add a link, but it is a .com, so I suggest you google it if you want more detail.

 

When I practice casting, even though I have been Fly Casting Salt Water (exclusively) for 26+ years, I always begin my session by training muscle memory, as I outlined in the above paragraph.  Fly Fishing, especially in the chaotic conditions of the surf, can instill bad casting habits that need to be erased by casting practice, hence the return to the beginning.

 

Hope this helps.

You really should study casting mechanism more!

 

Haul accelerates line direct 1 to 1 ratio and rod effect comes to that and it can decrease haul efficiency if haul is done too early when haul more increase rod bend. Or increase haul efficiency when haul is done late when rod straightens although rod straightening comes slower.

 

Simply saying bending rod is good for narrowing line loop but for line speed it is more complicated. Rod bend can result more line energy when we can use wider casting stroke without widening the line loop.

 

I have seen overlined very short line head cast using double haul, sometimes to head wind, and back cast comes too fast which ruins line loop when line tip overshoots. If there is head wind it make back cast happen still faster. Drift would calm down the line loop but when back cast was hauled there is no time to Drift so forward cast begins rod too upright. Then too abrupt casting stroke which create first Tailing Loop wave and there line tip overshoot might be the reason to begin forward casting stroke too fast. Then too early haul and possibly another TL wave.

 

When head wind casting a short line head the back cast usually should not need the line haul!!! Wind helps the line loop straightening even when very low power is used. Then there come more time to execute good Drift and forward casting stroke can be made wider/longer and line wave comes much smaller when casting stroke begins rod more line vise. Then very late haul which accelerates already fast line head and which narrows the line loop.

 

I believe with your experience your haul timing is quite good and at least you don't finish haul too early. But delaying haul still might improve your casting? That is what I have concentrated few years and think I can improve still but I also need to learn releasing line earlier. But improving Tracking would bring fastest results for me?

 

Esa

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