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Massive Fire at Silver Sands State Park

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1 hour ago, gman1253 said:

let me guess - pure speculation. 

 

the contractor(s) involved is operating in an LLC or corporation which has no assets the state can go after. 

 

Contractor may lose their license - not sure what fines could be levied.

 

Pretty unlikely that anything like that would be the case... typically contracting with governmental entities means you had to swallow some pretty one sided contract terms in favor of the governmental entity client.  $10M of liability insurance is on the low end for typical insurance requirements in a project like this.  If this contractor was a subcontractor, the GC's insurance or indemnity comes into play if there are any shortfalls in the subcontractor's insurance.  

 

Also, LLC's are not a perfect vehicle to "limit liability"... they very rarely hold up in court in cases when the LLC has other assets outside the LLC.   

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I heard on the news that someone from the state said that the state had not yet taken possession from the contractors and therefore any losses would be covered by the contractor's insurance?

====Mako Mike====
Makomania Sportfishing
Pt. Judith, RI
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It can be done a couple of different ways and depends on the contracts in place.  If a contractor was negligent, that contractor's liability insurance should cover the loss.  If it was arson or something where there was no clear cause of the fire, it would likely be the GC's property insurance / builder's risk insurance that responds... if he hasn't delivered the project to the client yet.  

 

State's don't typically buy insurance, they "self-insure" with taxpayer money... so the project not being delivered back to the state yet HOPEFULLY means the taxpayers are not going to be left holding the bag on this one.

Edited by thebigangrybear
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Big Angry Bear makes many good points.   More than likely there was a Builders Risk policy (property coverage) in place.  Typically the state requires this of the GC in addition to the high liability limits. 

 

I've also hear the same regarding the proximate cause. 

 

If the Builders Risk policies pays out which it should - do not see us taxpayers footing the bill on the actual building replacement.  The problem I see for us is all the BS studies they are now going to have to run, re-run (heard rumors on the shaddy-ness of prior studies) redo, rename then have 37 different independent firms conduct counter-studies, blah, blah.....  In the end, we will pay one way or another, it's Connecticut's motto!

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I get that when it was going to cost $9 to park there was valid neighborhood opposition as streets would be full of beach going cars- but when parking became free- Milford was still against it. We don't need $9,000,000 for a beach park- the schools need it. 

 

Maybe the price is crazy high- but can't we have some nice outdoor spaces in this State? If CT is going to make a comeback there has to be a good quality of life that young people want to be here.  Not 500 people using 6 porta pottys. 

 

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On 3/20/2019 at 7:41 AM, gman1253 said:

Of course we will pay .... just like the delay in the DMV software upgrade a few years back. CT specializes in FU's that are funded by tax payers. 

 

Please explain your statement.  I remember that new vehicle registration software caused delay at DMVs but I struggle to understand how a delay in implementation cost taxpayers - other than what were apparently very long wait times. I am very interested in your explanation. Thanks. 

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46 mins ago, Paul E said:

Please explain your statement.  I remember that new vehicle registration software caused delay at DMVs but I struggle to understand how a delay in implementation cost taxpayers - other than what were apparently very long wait times. I am very interested in your explanation. Thanks. 

Hidden costs/ soft costs....

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15 hours ago, gman1253 said:

Hidden costs/ soft costs....

Pardon my ignorance - are you trying to say something or trying not to say something?  

Your answer seems deliberately vague but I wish to give you the benefit of doubt by assuming you actually know what you are talking about and not just throwing bombs. 

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Recent update below, but still nothing regarding the cause of the first fire.

 

https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Silver-Sands-rebuild-unknown-after-fires-13717894.php

 

From the Article...

 

"The general contractor, Scopes Construction of New Britain, was insured. Sawyer confirmed this week the state intends to complete the project, but funding depends on the insurance coverage, and whether it will be enough to cover repairs. Those factors hinge on the cause of the fire."

 

"While the cause of the March 19 fire has not been determined, a subsequent fire on Sunday at two storage containers at the park has been ruled arson".

 

“There are so many things that have to be put in play before we can talk about rebuilding,” Rose said, adding, “Nothing moves quickly at the state.”

 

 

 

Edited by thebigangrybear
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56 mins ago, Paul E said:

Pardon my ignorance - are you trying to say something or trying not to say something?  

Your answer seems deliberately vague but I wish to give you the benefit of doubt by assuming you actually know what you are talking about and not just throwing bombs. 

Ok -- I was a little grumpy this AM with my 1st response so I will try to explain my views based on over 20 years of accounting & finance experience PLUS another 20 in project management & quality assurance in software for several major firms.

 

All projects need to be managed carefully otherwise you will almost always have time & cost overruns. Typically, the SDLC involves several major steps (which can vary to some degree & names may change on the model used by the firm). Planning,  Analysis, Design, Development, Testing, Deployment. Check out the Project Management Institute if yo uare interested.

 

Problems may arise at any of the steps & the EARLIER you catch any issues the cheaper it will be to correct them. This is because of the steps that must be followed to get the solution approved, developed ( or fixed), tested & deployed. 

 

Software development is done in a development environment, it is unit tested there. If it passes, the code will be migrated to a integration environment or QA environment where additional testing is performed. Testing here focuses on files/ data moving from one system to another, proper security, functionality, calculations, etc.. Once passed it will be moved to a UAT (user acceptance testing( environment, where users will test the code once more. Upon passing it will be migrated to the production environment.  If critical errors are found in UAT then the fix has to go back to get approval & go thru from the beginning & get passed thru all the ensuing environments.

 

That's quick & dirty. A very small project  (around $750,000) I worked on for a CT bank, I did a post mortem on the vendor we used. I estimated that the costs overruns exceeded $140,000. You have to factor all the time spent by the project team on the additional calls, meetings, testing, moving code, re-testing, etc. etc.  

 

 

 

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Calling BS. 

It appears that you are comparing installation of a banking software upgrade to a complete administrative system replacement. 

Taking a full grown mainframe application, developed and then modified over a span of five decades - with literally thousands of bells and whistles needed to process not only the 60 or so different vehicle classes (i.e. passenger and commercial thru tree trimmers, ambulances, buses, etc) each with their own industry and government standards for registration and regulation, plus all the fees related to license plates, emissions, insurance, titles and taxes - results in a system, not application, equal to that of any of Hartford’s insurance companies.  This was then replaced with a SQL based distributed system that had to account for those decades of twists and turns. 

I have managed the mergers of UNUM, Paul Revere Life, Colonial Life and ProvidentLife Insurance Companies IT applications and systems so 1) I know of what I speak and 2) I’m not impressed by your basic understanding of SDLC. 

Somehow, because you, once, found shady dealing at a bank (omg - of all places) you feel that you are an expert in this or anyone else’s project is pretty presumptuous. 

Sorry - do I sound grumpy?  I meant to sound annoyed by your attempts at faking an understanding of the complexity of the project you casually dismiss as government waste. 

So, I’ll ask again - do base your statement on anything or is it just more of the typical angry-at-the-world venting?

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1 hour ago, Paul E said:

Calling BS. 

It appears that you are comparing installation of a banking software upgrade to a complete administrative system replacement. 

Taking a full grown mainframe application, developed and then modified over a span of five decades - with literally thousands of bells and whistles needed to process not only the 60 or so different vehicle classes (i.e. passenger and commercial thru tree trimmers, ambulances, buses, etc) each with their own industry and government standards for registration and regulation, plus all the fees related to license plates, emissions, insurance, titles and taxes - results in a system, not application, equal to that of any of Hartford’s insurance companies.  This was then replaced with a SQL based distributed system that had to account for those decades of twists and turns. 

I have managed the mergers of UNUM, Paul Revere Life, Colonial Life and ProvidentLife Insurance Companies IT applications and systems so 1) I know of what I speak and 2) I’m not impressed by your basic understanding of SDLC. 

Somehow, because you, once, found shady dealing at a bank (omg - of all places) you feel that you are an expert in this or anyone else’s project is pretty presumptuous. 

Sorry - do I sound grumpy?  I meant to sound annoyed by your attempts at faking an understanding of the complexity of the project you casually dismiss as government waste. 

So, I’ll ask again - do base your statement on anything or is it just more of the typical angry-at-the-world venting?

Look I gave 1 simple example of the many I have experienced in my career. Sounds to me like you worked for the state & are defending their proficiency in mismanagement.

 

That's fine it's still a free country - I would end this agreeing to disagree.

 

Cheers...

 

 

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On 3/25/2019 at 9:49 PM, wader-dad said:

I get that when it was going to cost $9 to park there was valid neighborhood opposition as streets would be full of beach going cars- but when parking became free- Milford was still against it. We don't need $9,000,000 for a beach park- the schools need it. 

 

Maybe the price is crazy high- but can't we have some nice outdoor spaces in this State? If CT is going to make a comeback there has to be a good quality of life that young people want to be here.  Not 500 people using 6 porta pottys. 

 

It was more than major opposition from the neighborhood. Nobody in the area really wanted it. Yes parking at first was an issue. Then free parking would make surrounding neighborhoods hell to drive around, and I 95 as well. Local politicians heard the voice of the people and were on board opposing the project.

You ever see the Sherwood Island connector on Weekends?  Should be called the Sherwood Island parking area..And you pay to park there.You don't see a whole lot of CT license plates on those cars.

Ever see Sherwood Island on a Monday? Looks like a garbage dump.

So now let's look at a state park when it's free. Why sit in traffic on 95, to pay for parking, when you can drive another 15 miles and park for free? And when tools are implemented? Won't 95 be a fun ride on the weekends? As if we didn't already have enough fun commuting to work.

So with no incoming fees, the state needs to pay personnel for cleanup, patrolling, lifeguards ( which the state has a shortage of already ), plus local police, State police when needed.

Add this to the $9million boondoggle, and who pays for it? Not just local residents, but all CT taxpayers.

Silver Sands was nice already. Had lots of usage, boardwalk was rebuilt. So build a bathroom complex, Clean the graffiti from it once a year, have a service clean the septic tank. All for a lot less $$.We have nice outdoor places in CT. Look around, you'll find them. And entry is free for CT residents. Sort of. Add another $10.00 to your motor vehicle registration.

That ambitious project on Silver Sands was never needed. Improvements, yes mainly bathrooms. A trailer for administrative purposes, but $9m? How much in cost overruns were added to that?

I'm not against outdoor places one bit, obviously or I wouldn't be using this forum, but let's be realistic. Most state areas I hunt and fish, the bathrooms are a tree, or one porta potty, (clean I might add. Thanks DEEP.) Not a $9m complex.

Aren't we taxed enough? What tax benefit to the Milford area will we see? And I'm including West Haven and Stratford in that. People stopping by to use the bathrooms? Liquor stores? Bail bondsmen? Usually have a few fights over the course of the summer so those are needed.

I agree, put the 9million to education. Bridgeport needs a new Bassick HS, that would make a nice down payment.

PS... limit your beer intake so you don't have to stand in line with 500 other people waiting to use the porta potty, or is the water is warm, do what everyone else does, stand waist high in the water and pee there,

 

Sorry I was so wordy.

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