HillTop

Extra Fast Sink for TH Rod

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Ginclear

 

See if you can google up Lefty  Kreh showing how to,do a roll cast.

 

He takes the rod quite a way behind his body and when he comes forward he stops the rod where you would when making say a normal or false cast over head style,

The old fashioned way was to force the rod tip downwards which causes the line to roll like a wheel onto the water in a great big open loop.

A good roll cast forward will get out into the air straight. It may fall a bit below horizontal especially when casting into a head wind. From this position you can take it out of the air.

To give you a clue I am making my vertical lift with a head length of around 27 feet. Five feet I have retrieved inside my rod guides. How much your retrieve inside your rod guides depends on head length and rod length. My rod is about 13 feet long. With a 14 foot rod I can have more head outside the rod tip which makes life easier.

 

Ok you can go into a false cast sequence to tidy the cast up. I try to avoid that if I can but sometimes you need to do it.

When starting use an open stance so you can turn your head and properly watch your back cast. This means if you cast with your right hand up the rod you have your left foot forward.

later you can use a closed stance with right foot forward which helps with rod tracking  but you can’t turn your head and watch your back cast.

 

Most Guys do not watch their back casts  and it is a bad call in my opinion.

 

Mike

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6 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Heh what’s wrong with a newspaper.

 

The two go together like bread and jam.

 

I am not good with techo devices.

 

mikey

Mike Techno Devices are here to stay, and by the way, bread and jam are out!   Too much Gluten and too much Sugar.    You have to get with the times my friend :)

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4 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Ginclear

 

See if you can google up Lefty  Kreh showing how to,do a roll cast.

 

He takes the rod quite a way behind his body and when he comes forward he stops the rod where you would when making say a normal or false cast over head style,

The old fashioned way was to force the rod tip downwards which causes the line to roll like a wheel onto the water in a great big open loop.

A good roll cast forward will get out into the air straight. It may fall a bit below horizontal especially when casting into a head wind. From this position you can take it out of the air.

To give you a clue I am making my vertical lift with a head length of around 27 feet. Five feet I have retrieved inside my rod guides. How much your retrieve inside your rod guides depends on head length and rod length. My rod is about 13 feet long. With a 14 foot rod I can have more head outside the rod tip which makes life easier.

 

Ok you can go into a false cast sequence to tidy the cast up. I try to avoid that if I can but sometimes you need to do it.

When starting use an open stance so you can turn your head and properly watch your back cast. This means if you cast with your right hand up the rod you have your left foot forward.

later you can use a closed stance with right foot forward which helps with rod tracking  but you can’t turn your head and watch your back cast.

 

Most Guys do not watch their back casts  and it is a bad call in my opinion.

 

Mike

Thanks @Mike Oliverand @RedGreen. I’m looking forward to working this next time I get out. Mike, I always watch my backcasts, so that’s one good habit I’ve developed. I will also false cast once or twice occasionally to clean things up as you mentioned. 

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On 3/13/2019 at 7:28 PM, HillTop said:

 

Dan,  

 

I'm experimenting with a custom running line right now.     I like the OPST Laser line for how well it shoots but have had some difficulty with it easily tangling and knotting up.    It's mono core and should be stretched before use but I'm usually lazy and don't stretch it like I should but it's got some body to it and it flys through the guides better than a conventional running line.    My custom experiment, done on only on a couple feet of material so far, is taking 20lb monofilament  folding it over and twisting it like is done to make twisted leaders (similar to furled leaders).   This method takes the set out of the mono and the mono tends to want to lay nice and flat/straight.    Also by twisting the mono it tends not to take much of a set after being spooled on your reel.  Really nice for leaders too.     I then take the twisted mono and using it as the core in for 200lb Spectra Braid, (by PowerPro), I'll stuff the braid with this twisted mono.    It fits nicely inside the Spectra Braid which has near zero stretch as it's selling point.  Then I just smooth out the Spectra, whip a couple of loops on either end and then I coat the entire braid with diluted Liquid Fusion penetrate and to seal the surface (fill the pores to minimize grit accumulation and keep it smooth).  I love the initial sample I did.  It has some nice rigidity to it yet it's flexible enough to be somewhere near the Laser line in structure but tends to want to lay straight due to the twisted mono.  The finished diameter is about 40 mils.  (0.040") Comparable to many commercial running lines. 

 

Planning on making up a full length runner this weekend of ~ 100 feet to see how it casts.     The other idea I played with for this setup is after I finish the line per the above, I then twisted about 15 feet back on itself in a like fashion to making the twisted mono,  in essence doubling the diameter and using this new 15 foot end as my "handling" line, (ie: connect this end to my shooting head),  since I strip my shooting head in to just outside my tip top this will give me a more manageable line for casting, ie: a better grip (due to the larger diameter), and tactile feel (braid is now twisted, having a textured feel ),  for handling the line prior to shooting my next cast. 

 

If I can get this done this weekend and it looks promising and if I can find the time to also get over to your meeting next Wednesday I'll bring it along.

 

HT

 

HT  Correct me if I'm wrong but the Laser line is just an oval mono, not a cored line, unless they have changed it?

 

On another note, SWEET CHRISTMAS man, can the performance really be all that different?  Have you tried the Airflo running line?  I mean I know you like to beat things to death, but twisting mono and stuffing braided spectra, and then overcoating??????  You SERIOUSLY need another kid, or another job, or a hobby to take your mind off of fishing.  At the very least an intervention.  Actually WEED, a little ganga might slow that brain down a bit.  By the way, how are you coming along on world peace?

 

Spring is in the air!  See you soon.

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16 mins ago, Oakman said:

HT  Correct me if I'm wrong but the Laser line is just an oval mono, not a cored line, unless they have changed it?

 

On another note, SWEET CHRISTMAS man, can the performance really be all that different?  Have you tried the Airflo running line?  I mean I know you like to beat things to death, but twisting mono and stuffing braided spectra, and then overcoating??????  You SERIOUSLY need another kid, or another job, or a hobby to take your mind off of fishing.  At the very least an intervention.  Actually WEED, a little ganga might slow that brain down a bit.  By the way, how are you coming along on world peace?

 

Spring is in the air!  See you soon.

No you're right and I'm wrong.   Not mono core just mono.    Has some neat qualities but after using it for awhile I liked it less and less.    Maybe I need to give it another try.    They say virtually no memory but I found if I didn't stretch it enough I didn't like the way it behaved.  

 

Hey, once in awhile even a blind squirrel finds a nut.    I keep trying things and once in a blue moon I hit on a good one :)   I'd be a long shot in Vegas though.    Can't have another kid (tubes tied), too old to adopt,  I already work 55 hrs a week so I guess it has to be special brownies for me.    Can you bake a batch for this spring?

 

HT

 

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8 hours ago, ginclear said:

Thanks @Mike Oliverand @RedGreen. I’m looking forward to working this next time I get out. Mike, I always watch my backcasts, so that’s one good habit I’ve developed. I will also false cast once or twice occasionally to clean things up as you mentioned. 

This thread may have helped me get a full fly line cast.  I have been stuck at 80 feet with an occasional 90'.  Its dark so I can't watch my backcast and I always let line land on water to load backcast.  I will find some dedicated daylight casting practice time in April and try all of this stuff out @Mike Oliver and @RedGreen   The disadvantages of being self-taught are always high.  I have a lesson with FFIC TH instructor in April as well. 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Dan

 

It is rare that I shoot for 80 feet at night. Very difficult to do in the dark.

The focus is very much directed at dialing in and consistency which leads to increased safety levels

When retrieving my fly line The junction of head and running line lets me know how much I have got inside the rod guides. I won’t make a cast until have established where that junction is.

From there the forward roll cast is made and as decent a strong back cast followed by the delivery stroke. At night I am very keen to limit cast to just these few moves.

Before I make my first cast of the night I pull off a comfortable amount of running line into my line tray. I then make  a cast and it must bang against the reel. If not I shorten the amount  of running line until every cast bangs the reel.

 

Only the line that can be cast is put into the line tray.

Then I do a rolly poly retrieve and count how many it takes to get the fly line to running line junction  into my fingers. Let’s say it is a 25 count. So I make the cast and fish my fly. If I have not found my junction by a count of 27 time to use red light on my head lamp to find it.

If a fish runs me out more than the fly line in my tray it is no problem when fight is over to put back into the tray the exact amount of fly line. It  is 25 roly poly retrieves worth.

 

By knowing how much head you have inside the rod guides and casting same length of fly line you remove important variables. You get constants which allow you to develop,feel,for for your cast and way better timing.

 

It takes discipline to,do this but is well,worth it and helps make night fly fishing much safer and more enjoyable.

 

The last thing you want at night is multiple false casts  and potentially a very fast moving fly and fly line that is not under good control.

 

mike

 

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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4 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Dan

 

It is rare that I shoot for 80 feet at night. Very difficult to do in the dark.

The focus is very much directed at dialing in and consistency which leads to increased safety levels

When retrieving my fly line The junction of head and running line lets me know how much I have got inside the rod guides. I won’t make a cast until have established where that junction is.

From there the forward roll cast is made and as decent a strong back cast followed by the delivery stroke. At night I am very keen to limit cast to just these few moves.

Before I make my first cast of the night I pull off a comfortable amount of running line into my line tray. I then make  a cast and it must bang against the reel. If not I shorten the amount  of running line until every cast bangs the reel.

 

Only the line that can be cast is put into the line tray.

Then I do a rolly poly retrieve and count how many it takes to get the fly line to running line junction  into my fingers. Let’s say it is a 25 count. So I make the cast and fish my fly. If I have not found my junction by a count of 27 time to use red light on my head lamp to find it.

If a fish runs me out more than the fly line in my tray it is no problem when fight is over to put back into the try the exact amount of fly line. It  is 25 role poly retrieves worth.

 

By knowing how much head you have inside the rod guides and casting same length of fly line you remove important variables. You get constants which allow you to develop,feel,for for your cast and way better timing.

 

It takes discipline to,do this but is well,worth it and helps make night fly fishing much safer and more enjoyable.

 

The last thing you want at night is multiple false casts  and potentially a very fast moving fly and fly line that is not under good control.

 

mike

 

 

This is helpful thank you.  The reason for wanting the 100' cast is spot specific.  I have three areas I need at least a 90' cast to get fly into sweet spot as I cannot get safely any closer to target structure.  I found areas using spin gear and I am trying to convert to fly fishing success but distance is just outside of casting range at the moment and want to improve casting so I can specifically fish these three areas as they have produced 40" bass on gear with consistency

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Ok Dan

 

Whilst as a norm I reduce the distance I fish at during the night compared to daylight if you do need a 90 or a 100 foot cast it is doable. Ok not in any sort of headwind. Bit of a side wind on none casting side and not wading is  very ok. Tail wind a bit more tricky. Some nights we are  hero’s others we suck depending on wind direction and how we cast on the day. 

Everycast if you want big ones needs to be done very methodically.

No doubt that night can be both your friend and foe.

 

mike

 

Edited by Mike Oliver

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HillTop Max Garth about 10 years ago wrote extensively about braid and stuffing braid and finaly touted Monic GSP running as the best solution. Now I don’t know if it was similar to their running line offered now but he also decried the use of braid as a running line in the surf due to sand getting caught in the weave causing abrasion of the guides. Rarely do we see evaluations or discussions of Monic running lines so it’s diificult to know how it performs or it’s durability without trying it yourself.

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20 mins ago, flyrad10 said:

HillTop Max Garth about 10 years ago wrote extensively about braid and stuffing braid and finaly touted Monic GSP running as the best solution. Now I don’t know if it was similar to their running line offered now but he also decried the use of braid as a running line in the surf due to sand getting caught in the weave causing abrasion of the guides. Rarely do we see evaluations or discussions of Monic running lines so it’s diificult to know how it performs or it’s durability without trying it yourself.

 

@flyrad10,   to answer your previous question it's the PowerPro Hollow Ace product that I'm using.

 

Yes I've read quite a few of Max Garth's posts on the subject over the years.    I'm not overly concerned with the grit aspect as 1, the dilution of Liquid Fusion coating fills some of the materials pores, 2, I have SIC guides on my rod, and lastly,  I unfortunately don't get to fish that many days during the season so any guide erosion is going to be minimal if at all.  I built my own rod so if I have to I'll replace the guides.   This is something I've always wanted to try as I like to tinker and I wanted it for use with a sink setup and since I'm going to be purchasing either a fast sink head or some of the T17 material to experiment with why not go the full monty and get this out of my system.   Will be doing it in spite of the ridicule from one of my spring fishing companions.  :) 

 

HT

 

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On 3/13/2019 at 4:00 PM, HillTop said:

Yeah thought about buying some T material to play with but can't get the grains to length ratio I'm looking for and like the idea of the heavier UST lines that have some taper to them thinking they would cast better.  Being able to trim them a little to fine tune is appealing as well.    I think worth the investment to experiment with.    

 

HT

 

That's exactly right HT - it's a fine tuning not a wholesale cutting.

 

Key to trimming any line from the front, like one of the older USTs (not the UST shorts which are already sized to shorter TH rods) is to start really small, couple of inches at a time.  Too much cut from the front and the head will start to dump. 

 

On the dual density ones (lengths given above) the front end has a loop.  At least 6"- 8" back from that loop there is very little visible change in tip diameter.  At around 10"-15" back the tip starts getting noticeably thicker.   This really should be a tuning of the tip not a wholesale cutting off of the front taper.  If you need a head that is shorter than 34' it might be best to get a newer UST short head (and pay $50-60 for one new).  The older USTs are available still for around $21-30.

 

BTW I also tune the tips of some other lines - the Wulff triangle taper lines can also be tip tuned in such a manner.  Same do's and dont's - start small and don't go too far with it.

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HillTop sounds good. Lets us know how your experiment goes with the diy running line and Level T heads. Are you familiar with Dan Blanton’s use of Diy T heads on SH Rods? 

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