HillTop

Extra Fast Sink for TH Rod

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Noticed this discrepancy between floating and sinking lines years ago when tuning shooting heads cut from DT lines. Floating heads always came out slightly longer and heavier than sinkers for the same feel. Never could work out why this was so just put it down to my casting ability or lack of. Even tried casting them with my eyes closed but the results were the same.

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6 hours ago, essexalan said:

Noticed this discrepancy between floating and sinking lines years ago when tuning shooting heads cut from DT lines. Floating heads always came out slightly longer and heavier than sinkers for the same feel. Never could work out why ...

 

We never had to work out why in the days before the Internet

Edited by SSPey

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2 mins ago, SSPey said:

 

We never had to work out why in the days before the Internet

This was way before the days of the Internet, forgot about it until this thread was posted.

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17 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

Yes it can get a bit repetitive twitching a crab over the bottom but when you get a take it is pretty cool.

 

In Maine we fished them over both sand and rough ground. 

 

15 feet is an interesting challenge.

 

mike

I love the take.  I am fishing some decent troughs.  In response to your other question, I fish both weighted and unweighted on the T-17.  Crab flies and clousers are weighted- seaducer, and hollows are not.  Completely off topic, I had an absolute blast swinging flies on the two hander with a Skagit head and a 10' T14 tip.   I made up some striper intruders as well as some dubbing brush seaducer style flies and did really well in big current over structure.

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1 hour ago, SSPey said:

 

We never had to work out why in the days before the Internet

Bang on. We just went fishing. No maths in sight. No reviews. No BS. No testosterone.

 

Pure  unadulterated fishing.

 

It is still there. Just toss away the so called connected devices.

 

mikey

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6 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Bang on. We just went fishing. No maths in sight. No reviews. No BS. No testosterone.

 

Pure  unadulterated fishing.

 

It is still there. Just toss away the so called connected devices.

 

mikey

I like being able to check the tide and the weather while in the loo....  :witty:

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True, or a tide book..... Last year was the first year I really looked tides beyond time of day....  There is something to this whole tide thing...

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18 hours ago, HillTop said:

Yeah thought about buying some T material to play with but can't get the grains to length ratio I'm looking for and like the idea of the heavier UST lines that have some taper to them thinking they would cast better.  Being able to trim them a little to fine tune is appealing as well.    I think worth the investment to experiment with.    

 

HT

 

 

18 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Esa,

 

My UST hover/intermediate heads in 10/11, 9/10, and 8/9wt all have 66% of their mass in the rear of the head. 

 

But the sink5 heads I have are different. The 10/11 UST in sink 5 has 22 grams in the rear half of the head and weighs 42 grams overall. 

 

I have a 750 grain UST which has 28 grams in the rear half and 20 in the front half which is a more typical scandi layout but still a lot of punch. 

 

So this is my finding - I only have the UST's in double density (sink 3/sink 4) and I am pretty sure they are very much fatter in the back but more dense in front (smaller diameter for weight).  The lines are a bit longer than I like to cast on my 11' TH rod.  I prefer heads in the 33' to 35' range and these are 36'+.  If I need to I can keep some of that fatter rear head inside the guides, but another solution is to trim a bit off the tip (from 10" up to around 15") which allows me to keep more of the rear portion of the head outside the guides and to throw larger flies.  Kind of like dropping from a Skagit head with a 10' tip to one with an 8.5' tip.

 

The lengths and weights of these lines varies:

 

6/7wt - 400g   length - 36'

7/8wt - 463g   length - 37'

8/9wt - 525g   length - 38'

9/10 - 586g     length - 40'

10/11 - 648g   length - 42'

 

So for me the ones most useful on my short (11' rods) are the 6/7 through 8/9 wts, based on the lengths of head I typically use.  Cutting 10-15" off the tip reduces the line weight ratings more toward the lower end of the rated line - so from a 7/8 TH rating to a 7, etc...  That heavy rear weighted section is  still plenty to fully load the rod.  I only cut from the front if I am intending to throw larger, heavier or weighted flies THOH. 

 

Agree with Esa that typically I wouldn't do that but, IMO, it works with these lines, just don't over-do it.

Edited by Killiefish

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I have been thinking of cutting the tips on my lesser density UST's to help give a stronger turnover as well as reduce head length so it's easier to get an aerial roll cast away in a headwind. On some of them I have cut them in half and replaced the front half with a portion of head from a 13wt cold saltwater line, just enough to maintain the original weight or just a touch more. Those are great. They deliver any fly I want to but are a tad short if I'm high and dry. They really shine when I'm waist deep in water.

 

When measuring heads for weight you may as well do length too. You may be surprised. My 10/11 S5 UST had 22 grams in the rear half and 20 in the front, and measured 38'4'' long. The length on the box said it was supposed to be 36' I believe. Mine isn't a UST short. I have several UST bolts which I suspect are prototypes for the UST short heads and they are true to the box rating and measurements. I don't know how the mass distribution is on the new UST short heads in densities higher than float.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

The biggest issue I've had throwing fast sinking heads with two handed overhead casting @HillTop is picking up the head for the first backcast after the retrieve. I'm still working on a technique that works for me. I will bring more of the sinking head in before the rollcast, then shoot a bit out when setting up a water haul before my backcast and shoot. If too much sink head is left out or my timing is off, it tends to prevent me from getting a clean rollcast or backcast. 

I have had luck letting heavy crab patterns bounce along the bottom in fast current, but the takes are very subtle any usually not felt until the end of the drift. I suspect a tight line drift would work better here but that is hard to accomplish with a heavy sinking line. 

Edited by ginclear
typo

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Casting a fast sinking head on a TH is just like any other shooting head, save perhaps a floater.

 

Vertical lift of the rod, draw back to make a big D loop (during these events the line is unplugged from the water, you may need to take a few feet of head into the guides to make this happen), aerial roll cast with enough punch to get it to unroll cleanly into the air above the water, back cast and shoot the head out the guides, then forward cast and deliver.

 

No water haul required. I wouldn't water haul with a fast sinker ever anyways as it will usually sink too deep before you have the chance to pull it out of the water. You'll just waste energy getting nowhere fast. With an intermediate it is a little different but still there should be zero need for a water haul. There has only been one time when a water haul was helpful for me but it cost more energy than casting normally and I could have gotten by without it.

Edited by RedGreen

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ginclear

 

If I could be allowed to reinforce Redgreens advice to use a vertical lift of the rod to totally unplug your sunken line. When I am helping guys it’s amazing how they interpret a vertical  rod lift. A great many will still lift for some reason the rod pretty, much horizontally. It does not work. Some  Casters will not retrieve enough head and they fail to totally free the head  from the sea with poor results as a consequence. We can’t drag the line out of the water with a casting motion.

A roll cast on its own will not unplug an I line let alone a deeply sunk heavy fast sinker.

The vertical lift of the rod can be done as slow as you like. Time to light a fag if you smoke.

Water hauls with a fast sinker is not a great idea. Get the end couple of feet dribbling on the surface as you reach  near the end of this vertical lift. Circle the rod up and make a strong forward roll cast. Take the roll cast out of the air. If it’s strong enough you can shoot  some of the head you pulled inside the guides.

Then go into a strong back cast. It must be strong enough to straighten the line behind you. Turn and watch what’s going on. A good back cast will allow you to shoot the rest of the head outside your tip ring.

Your forward delivery cast then is a doddle.

With a fast sinking line or T14 / T17 heads you don’t want a hard change of direction. An oval rod stroke is best. Bit like a Belgian cast. This helps stop the line bouncing back on itself and screwing up the cast. Less likely to get a fly rod shaft collision to. A heavy fly can shear through your blank.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike

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Thanks @Mike Oliver and @RedGreen. I think I get what your saying, but when doing the roll cast with a heavy sink line to set up the backcast and shoot, I don't understand how you keep the line off the water. When I roll the tip forward, it rolls onto the water, not into the air (this is where I must be doing something wrong because I can't roll the tip and suspend it in air before my backcast & shoot). When I say "water haul", I am picking the rolled tip of the line out of the water into the backcast and when straightened, shoot it forward. I do use an oval rod stroke with this final cast. 

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Ginclear you have to stop the rod high just like on a forward cast and that will get your line up in the air. Hard to explain with words but easy to demonstrate. I have problems getting the head to straighten above the water too sometimes. It's a skill like anything else. Just need practice in application. A little bottom hand punch at the end of your stroke helps to get the line up and out with good speed. 

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