xjclint

Budget TH Beach Rod

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Esa the 3lb emcast I believe had IP681. That is not too powerful not a chance I have a rod which is even more so and plan on matching it with 750-850 grains. 

 

I just will never understand why people feel the need to load a rod so heavily that it makes it sloppy. People don't do this with single handed rods and that's exact what a well matched TH is! Just a scaled up 9'er for casting with both hands. The loading is the same! 

 

If you're doing this and finding your TH works well it's because you're not in rough weather like 15+ MPH winds which are way stronger than you think. Bring your overloaded TH here and watch it fail. This arena is where a proper TH is designed to excel and overcome all other options for fly boys. 

 

In calm weather anything will work, including a single handed 7wt which is weak too and there's no way people would recommend that for the surf so why a weak heavily overloaded TH?

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4 hours ago, fly_flinger_ said:

Does anyone have any experience with a TFO deer creek 11' 9wt? Rated for 5-700 grain, it seems like it would be a good option if you were able to find one used

The Deer Creek 9wt is a powerful 9wt switch rod but I wouldn't think you would want to two hand overhead cast more than ~500g with it (this is enough for all of my uses, BTW, but I don't generally fish in conditions that Mike or Red Green does).  The one thing I will say about the TFO rods is that they are more powerful by 1/2 weight than most at their rating, similar to Echo TH rods.  The Beulah's tend to be correctly rated.  I have compared perhaps 5-10 of each brand so I feel I have a good grasp of how the manufacturers rate their rods.   When TFO says that 500g is at the low end of their range you can assume that that would work o.k. for overhead use.  Can go a bit lower.  11w, 465g Outbound or 10/11 wt Airflo Beach line on that rod is not bad.  At 11' the rod is a bit short but that makes it pretty great for use in crowded environments, off rocks or jetties, etc.

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14 hours ago, RedGreen said:

Killie no question 500 max on the king 10wt. It has less guts than my first TH which I would do 500 max on. 

 

Out front it won't cut it. It just won't. I hoped it would be more powerful than it was but that's the reality. 

 

In a back bay with 550 it would be a treat. For an open beach not a chance. I'd sooner bring a carp rod. 

 

All I have to say is that your findings on the Echo rods don't comport with mine.  My point was that there are two versions of the Echo King rod.  600g overhead is perfectly do-able on the 10w, versus around 500g on the 9wt.  Perhaps you were casting the King 9wt??  I am simply not sure I can believe that a rod rated for 720 to 810 grains for Skagit (i.e., manufacturer specs for the 10wt version King rod) can not handle at least 75% to 80% of that load when used THOH (so around 540g to 680, avg. 610g).  In fact, across the board, almost all the TH rods that I have tried can handle lines that are ~20 to 25% less than the average (not high end) Skagit rating when used overhead.  You are saying 40% less.  We are simply not using the rods in the same situations, so I believe we just need to agree to disagree on this.

Edited by Killiefish

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21 hours ago, Mike Oliver said:

It should Esa. I think they do a 9 wt version and that would be my choice over the 8 wt any day of the week for a general purpose TH for the salt. My bias is for the conditions typically found in the NE of the USA.

 

Mike

That's exactly what I have, and I despise it.

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Killie correct me if I am wrong but you have not fished out front and by that I mean white water and winds heavy enough to blow away single handed guys except possibly very very skilled ones. So of course your findings will not match mine; we have completely different backgrounds.

 

I was definitely holding the 10wt. It just did not have the guts. Very simple. The action was fine but if it had 30% more power than it had I'd have had a different outlook completely but the fact is it is not as powerful as my first TH from last spring (NFC SA-1235-2) which also did not cut it out front. Again I stress OUT FRONT. Here you need around half the mass you would normally use spey casting. I have a rod which matches with 550 grains wonderfully out front and I would spey cast no less than 1050 grains with it. I have done this and when it works it is a real treat.

 

Mike uses 550 grains on his MkI blank which would probably be like a slightly underrated 12wt spey rod and is rated for 1000+ grains spey casting. His 14' MkII is close to a 13wt and is rated for 1400 grains spey I believe but I would go no more than 650.

 

If you have light or no wind you can overhead the same weight you can spey cast, but as the wind kicks up your casting load simply has to decrease or you will go no where fast. I have thrown that 1050 grain head overhead on that rod I'd normally load with 550 and it is scary to me, mostly because I know if I hit it hard on the forward cast that I could plausibly come close to breaking that rod in half.

 

With a rod with IP620grams I like 650 grains. I'd guess that's a bit less than double the power of the echo king 10wt but I have not measured it so that's a shot in the dark at best. I have thrown 840 grains on this rod and in slo-mo it is stunning to see how much it bends. I can noodle it into a U shape mid cast. That's 1.35 grains to grams. It was simply overloaded for overhead casting and it's recovery slowed down a lot over my typical 650 heads. In blue bird weather this would have worked but out front I would have been in trouble as the rod just didn't have the guts to punch that kind of load into a significant headwind.

 

CCS is the key to matching. 1 or 1.2 grains of line per gram of IP is what myself and others have found to empirically work out front. Objective. Measurable. Line recommendations by mfgs are never a set standard. Hell there isn't even an objective standard for any wt rod. So how can we take what they say as fact? Where are the metrics and documentation to justify their recommendations? You simply cannot take a subjective statement like the mgfs recommendations as fact. You just cannot.

 

Everything I say I learned from getting out there and doing myself. My knowledge is grounded in my experience at the beach and at the lake. The fact is that ratio that I came across empirically works everywhere. Bluebird days I can still cast great with a rod most of the guys on here would say is radically underlined but when the weather kicks up everyone has to leave but me. I have not yet come across weather that I could not fly fish in with my TH rods.

 

If you have only bluebird days then you can toss whatever you want and it doesn't matter. That is also completely true. But when the weather kicks up you'll have to pack it in with the single handed guys which for me is not what the TH is all about.

 

 We are in agreement in one part but until you get out there when 99% of fly boys think it's futile you will not get it. My advice is to try it. What does it cost? If you're close to the coast a half hour on the beach to give it a whirl is a small price to pay for the knowledge you gain.

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1 hour ago, RedGreen said:

Why?

It's very whippy. I had a hard time getting smooth casts, the head would often fall onto the water in a bit of a heap (loop not unrolling all the way). I could cast into the backing on a calm day. But it just feels way too buttery. Also, it didn't pick up the line with the kind of authority I would like. I'm sure I could adjust my casting stroke to make the forward cast straighten out better, but I just didn't like the way it feels at all, and since I've been told that the thing folds up in a stiff wind and the whole reason I want a two-hander is to ensure that 20 mph winds after I've driven 6.5 hours doesn't mean I'm turning around and going straight home, it's not for me.

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PAtroutguy you get it way more than most. Because you actually went out and did it. 

 

I completely agree with you that is not a rod for out front but more like back bays and bluebird days. For out front you want a lot more guts as you understand very well now. I have built a TH rod which is around 13' and about double the power of your pandion that I've used out front alongside Mike and it works great with 650 grains overhead. On a calm day 120' casts are possible but when the wind gets cranking your distance will drop but just the head out the rod will have you to 60' with the leader and that is realistic in very rough weather too rough for single handers to work in. If you build it yourself you can fully outfit it for less than the pandion too. PM me if you want more details or look up my thread in the rod building forum "Pac bay 1409-4 report". 

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Posted (edited) · Report post

This thread brings up an issue that  keeps coming up and with all due respect to the input above I don't agree that fly rods need to handle 1000+ grains Skagit to work overhead in salt.  My opinion is also based on experience. 

 

I suggest to those who are scratching their heads with the above:  take your TH rod (or borrow one) and find out what it's range of grains are for Skagit casting.  You can easily find out this range online because there are tables or manufacturer's specs for most TH rods.  Google is your friend...

 

If you are going to approach things "out front" in the ways that Red Green and Mike and perhaps others do then use the mid point of the range (so if it's 650g to 750 g then 700), multiply by .5 = 350g (or maybe .6) = 420.  Try casting that 350g (or 420 if you used .6) line overhead and see for yourself if it loads the rod well and casts well in serious wind.   You can define serious wind any way you please...I don't know what it means.

 

Alternatively, try using the same midpoint (700g) and multiply by .80 (this is what I use, or for a stiff tipped TH rod I actually use .825).  I get 560 to 580g.  Try using that line TH OH in normal conditions that you typically fish and if that includes serious wind I guess be prepared to downline or else grab your spinning rod.

 

Most likely these o.k. starting points will help you figure it out for yourself.  Which is what really matters.

 

 

Edited by Killiefish
add smugness

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I guess there should be a thread for the ''out front'' guys, and one thread for the normal guys...

 

Just kiddin' :)

 

^..^

Edited by snapper1

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1 min ago, snapper1 said:

I guess there should be a thread for the ''out front'' guys, and one thread for the normal guys...

 

Just kiddin' :)

 

^..^

Define normal.  There's no such thing.  We're all fanatics.  But your point is well taken.

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58 mins ago, Killiefish said:

Define normal.  There's no such thing.  We're all fanatics.  But your point is well taken.

True.

 

^..^

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Killie

 

Not a bad approach to,sorting out a starting  point for your line.

 

Rods designed to cast with water anchored casts tend to load more deeply into the Butt section which is not necessarily a desirable attribute if OH casting is the principle way the rod is going to be used in the salt. I have cast rods like this and it was not good.

 

If I was looking at std fresh water TH rods I would be looking at models which had air borne anchors in mind either conventional  Spey or Scandi.

 

I would be looking as a minimim of a  10 wt. more if I could find it.

 

Now it’s kinda funny that no differentiation is made between guys who,fish SH rods say in a 10 wt in the surf and yet there is a suggestion that my approach is  some how different  to using a TH rod in the ocean and to some maybe off the wall. My goal is quite simply to be able to fish effectively when conditions overwhelm SH rods. My goal,is to fly fish whenever possible. There are limits for sure. But unless we push the boundaries we will not know where those limits are set. 

I have expectations that my gear can do what is required of it be the conditions inclement or fisher friendly.

I don’t carry two SH  10 wts one which does a better job than the other and in the same way I don’t wish to carry two TH rods. One for calm and one for less than calm.

The same conversations have been going on now for over ten years. Jim De before I got heavily involved with TH started them at least two years before I started to use two hands rather than one.

What is startling  and I have said this many times in the past is that it all becomes very clear once a new guy gets too the beach and gets some help, with  his cast and with an appropriate rod.

The TH teach ins I used to run with Herb are testament to that.

Maybe one day I will run them again.

Just needs enough guys to make it happen.

 

mikey

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I will offer my parting words on this thread.  I will have a DC 9wt, maddragon 2.75 plus an assortment of other TH rods including a Meiser rod (lighter weight then the rods in this discussion but a valuable data point) available for anyone who wants to play around with one before buying.  You are welcome to come by and give them a try at a local field.  Just PM me.  Once April comes, I am down by the Cape a lot and we could meet there. I live about 30 miles west of Boston.

I'm pretty sure if fly fishing means throwing 800- 1000gr lines I am picking up my surf rod and throwing plugs.

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54 mins ago, qecfly said:

I will offer my parting words on this thread.  I will have a DC 9wt, maddragon 2.75 plus an assortment of other TH rods including a Meiser rod (lighter weight then the rods in this discussion but a valuable data point) available for anyone who wants to play around with one before buying.  You are welcome to come by and give them a try at a local field.  Just PM me.  Once April comes, I am down by the Cape a lot and we could meet there. I live about 30 miles west of Boston.

I'm pretty sure if fly fishing means throwing 800- 1000gr lines I am picking up my surf rod and throwing plugs.

Make sure to have lines from at least around 450g to 700g.  I predict the DC 9 (if it's the switch rod at 11') will be great with an 11 or 12 wt Outbound Short (465g, or 530g, both 30' head).   That's based on my "fanatical, option b: non-lunatic fishing conditions method" - 600g Skagit (avg) x .8 = 480g or thereabouts.  YMMV.

 

 

 

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