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Dave588

Road salt that destroys fish hatching areas

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10 mins ago, bob_G said:

Then explain why native Ma brook trout are teetering on the brink of disappearing? 

The brookies were thriving when I was a kid way back in the 1960s.  Now, they're gone.

Were beavers invented in the 60s Bob?

 

There were millions of beavers when the colonists arrived.

The first economy of Massachusetts depended heavily on beaver pelts.

There were a ****load of brook trout back then.

How did they survive all those beaver.

 

You really need me to splain what happened to the streams since the 60s?

You think it's beaver?

THAT'S what stands out as having changed?

 

How many lawns added since then?

How much landscaping?

How many municipal pump stations and well fields and private wells been sunk in that aquifer?

How many millions of gallons per week did nestle buy?

How many old road culverts are impassable to trout?

 

Ive seen wetlands go dry overnight from municipal wells being rehabbed. 

Seen 250 condos built in a trout stream headwaters in a town with no public water or sewer.

250 families plus clubhouse, pool and acres of landscaping, every last drop of water stolen from nature, then returned to the land as ****water.

 

Meanwhile streams and seeps and wetlands that have been dry 100 years refill when beaver ponds return and stockpile the water.

 

Done.

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I think what we're seeing with the road salt recently is a product of the mild winter.

They're using up product leftover from December and trying to recoup missed OT.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

9 mins ago, mikez2 said:

Were beavers invented in the 60s Bob?

 

There were millions of beavers when the colonists arrived.

The first economy of Massachusetts depended heavily on beaver pelts.

There were a ****load of brook trout back then.

How did they survive all those beaver.

 

You really need me to splain what happened to the streams since the 60s?

You think it's beaver?

THAT'S what stands out as having changed?

 

How many lawns added since then?

How much landscaping?

How many municipal pump stations and well fields and private wells been sunk in that aquifer?

How many millions of gallons per week did nestle buy?

How many old road culverts are impassable to trout?

 

Ive seen wetlands go dry overnight from municipal wells being rehabbed. 

Seen 250 condos built in a trout stream headwaters in a town with no public water or sewer.

250 families plus clubhouse, pool and acres of landscaping, every last drop of water stolen from nature, then returned to the land as ****water.

 

Meanwhile streams and seeps and wetlands that have been dry 100 years refill when beaver ponds return and stockpile the water.

 

Done.

Mike,

I think if you go back and re-read my original post, you'll find I didn't lay the blame solely at the feet of the beavers. I said human development and  beavers were the main culprits, with road salt a close third.

But to answer your other question. No, beavers werent invented in the 60s. However, I was there, and know what I saw. Beavers were not all that common, and rarely caused problem because they were trapped. 

Edited by bob_G

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Beaver vs trout is pretty much impossible to argue with true believers which are usually TU guys and almost aways older.

The older generation seems like they can not be moved on the topic by any amount of fact or logic. 

The concept of beaver as enemy of trout will literally have to die with its true believers. 

 

Meanwhile tons of 21st century research is revealing amazing things about how benificial beaver are to the ecosystem. 

For example artificial beaver dams are being built on the west coast to improve habitat for steelhead and salmon. 

There is very convincing theory that the California wildfires would never had been so devestating if there were beaver in more of the land. 

There is much more for open-minded types to look into.

 

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Beaver pies supplemented the woodsman of old . as did the skins . The salting of the roads offer harm in some form or another , The pre salting prior to salting does reduce some the effect from what the literature states . The pre salting is supposed to help reduce the temp on the road so that the they use less pure salt and it sticks where they put it. Correct me i misunderstood what i read . That is another reason some towns in order to reduce the salt contamination are using pickle and beet juices as a pre salting application .

If the process is done properly what ever salt that remains should be filtered out before it gets to the water systems , but most know, we always have more applied then needed unfortunately . That was one of the reasons they started to computerize how much they spread out on the road. It makes idiot proof . or one would think.  

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Can anybody give me links to scientific literature that documents the damge done by road salt?

A quick google lists mostly press stories that all say "We know road salt is bad", but so far the first scientific papers are underwhelming in proving it.

I'm not necessarily arguing road salt is harmless, I'm just wondering if anybody has documented cases of salt harming trout populations.

 

http://approach.rpi.edu/2017/02/24/jefferson-project-–-road-salt-and-developing-trout/

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7 mins ago, mikez2 said:

Beaver vs trout is pretty much impossible to argue with true believers which are usually TU guys and almost aways older.

The older generation seems like they can not be moved on the topic by any amount of fact or logic. 

The concept of beaver as enemy of trout will literally have to die with its true believers. 

 

Meanwhile tons of 21st century research is revealing amazing things about how benificial beaver are to the ecosystem. 

For example artificial beaver dams are being built on the west coast to improve habitat for steelhead and salmon. 

There is very convincing theory that the California wildfires would never had been so devestating if there were beaver in more of the land. 

There is much more for open-minded types to look into.

 

Besides our "closed minds" one advantage us older generation guys have is, we were there.  I can't speak for char and salmon populations in other parts if the world. So I'll just confine my comments to my little part of the world in central Ma.

There were lots of native trout. Beautiful brook trout. I'd often see them in their full spawning regalia while I was hunting in the fall. The little stream 1/4 mile from my folks home in Auburn had brook trout.

But, those fish are gone, and the beavers are here. Tough to overlook.

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8 mins ago, mikez2 said:

Beaver vs trout is pretty much impossible to argue with true believers which are usually TU guys and almost aways older.

The older generation seems like they can not be moved on the topic by any amount of fact or logic. 

The concept of beaver as enemy of trout will literally have to die with its true believers. 

 

Meanwhile tons of 21st century research is revealing amazing things about how benificial beaver are to the ecosystem. 

For example artificial beaver dams are being built on the west coast to improve habitat for steelhead and salmon. 

There is very convincing theory that the California wildfires would never had been so devestating if there were beaver in more of the land. 

There is much more for open-minded types to look into.

 

Mike history has a funny way of changing how one perceives the worth of any animal in our lives . Our maker put them here all for a good reason and in some cases we can agree as much as we disagree as to the value they offer . In the case of beavers much of what you have posted has been verified , so  that means they still have some significant value in the whole system of life . We can agree with your thoughts on that subject.   Now on the other hand Seals are in a different frame of redemption, I have not been able to verify any good use in our local beach areas, other then destroying it further then it has ever been , by eating every thing that lays on the bottom and leaving its deposits for other fish to ingest and be affected. 

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Do you guys truly believe that beavers and road salt are killing the brook trout?  Habitat destruction due to development and infrastructure seems like a more realistic reason.  The increasing human population eating the trout also probably caused their demise.

I fish a few lakes that have roadways running right near then that are thriving with fish and plants. The road salt is clearly having no effect on them. 

I do also hate the overuse of salt but that’s due to it destroying our vehicles. 

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3 hours ago, mikez2 said:

I think what we're seeing with the road salt recently is a product of the mild winter.

They're using up product leftover from December and trying to recoup missed OT.

+1. Its a sad state of affairs when dot needs policed for overapplication fleecing state for overtime.

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12 hours ago, Dave588 said:

+1. Its a sad state of affairs when dot needs policed for overapplication fleecing state for overtime.

I don't know that is really what is going on, just a theory.

With a background in DPW and plow driver mentality. 

 

I definitely noticed it before this thread.

Last storm, then again this one, my town was dumping rock and liquid hours before any precipitation. 

I don't recall that in past years. Maybe they always did.

 

One thing I do know, in bad winters when the salt barns run low and the OT budget runs high, it's a different ball game.

 

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Last night I left work at 10:30 pm, it was 7.0F.

There was liquid water trickling in the street and down the storm drain!

Think about how salty it has to be to be unfrozen at 7F.

 

I don't agree the road salt killed off the brookies but I do agree it is bad.

 

Even worse, the few quick scans I did of available literature suggests the newer " environmentally friendly" types might actually be less safe than old ones.

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11 mins ago, mikez2 said:

Last night I left work at 10:30 pm, it was 7.0F.

There was liquid water trickling in the street and down the storm drain!

Think about how salty it has to be to be unfrozen at 7F.

 

I don't agree the road salt killed off the brookies but I do agree it is bad.

 

Even worse, the few quick scans I did of available literature suggests the newer " environmentally friendly" types might actually be less safe than old ones.

First of all Mike, road salt stops working t appx. 22 degrees F. what you observed was salt mixed with magnizium which lowers the freezing point of the brine.  The brine you saw flowing down the storm drains, in probably 99% of the state, goes directly in to a waterway, in other words it is not treated………….  Is it harming our environment, yes IMO.  As far as the perceived shortage of native brook trout, they are plentiful out here in the western part of the state where we are fortunate to have many clear cool streams and rivers.  Many people consider streams and rivers like the Swift as being pristine wilderness waterways when in all reality they are not.

 

Have you ever driven down the highways and byways of our state and seen the signs that say "Caution Low Salt Area"  the are test areas because of the fact that the DOT pollouted many wells with sodium and they are used as a pacifier of sorts.  Having owned a "test truck with spreader" back in the 70s my job was taking care of a section of Rt. 9.  This truck was equipped with a rudimentary application computer and actually it worked very well.  On these test sections we applied a minimal amount of salt per lane mile per pass...……….BUT there was no limit as to how many passes I could make to keep the road black and snow/ice free.  Makes a lot of sense...………...

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15 mins ago, b-ware said:

First of all Mike, road salt stops working t appx. 22 degrees F. what you observed was salt mixed with magnizium which lowers the freezing point of the brine.  The brine you saw flowing down the storm drains, in probably 99% of the state, goes directly in to a waterway, in other words it is not treated………….  Is it harming our environment, yes IMO.  As far as the perceived shortage of native brook trout, they are plentiful out here in the western part of the state where we are fortunate to have many clear cool streams and rivers.  Many people consider streams and rivers like the Swift as being pristine wilderness waterways when in all reality they are not.

 

Have you ever driven down the highways and byways of our state and seen the signs that say "Caution Low Salt Area"  the are test areas because of the fact that the DOT pollouted many wells with sodium and they are used as a pacifier of sorts.  Having owned a "test truck with spreader" back in the 70s my job was taking care of a section of Rt. 9.  This truck was equipped with a rudimentary application computer and actually it worked very well.  On these test sections we applied a minimal amount of salt per lane mile per pass...……….BUT there was no limit as to how many passes I could make to keep the road black and snow/ice free.  Makes a lot of sense...………...

Well, in the case of the storm drains I observed last night, I know exactly where they go. 

In the 90s, the company that owned the property at the time was prosperous and progressive. 

Recognizing the impact of their huge parking lots and roofs, they built a (for the time) state of the art retention pond designed as an "artificial wetlands", with a dike, screened overflow and flume to record flow which ultimately goes to the Merrimack and out to sea.

Along with that goes State and federal permits, sampling and reporting. I'm second in command for responsibility for those permits. A large part of retaining my state license is yearly required training seminars on various trade topics including ecology, chemistry and law.

Road salt absolutely is a topic of discussion in drinking water. 

I'm also First in command for daily weekly monthly yearly nature observations in the pond, off the record. :shaky:

I only say all that so I can talk road salt/environment from the proper perspective. 

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4 mins ago, mikez2 said:

Well, in the case of the storm drains I observed last night, I know exactly where they go. 

In the 90s, the company that owned the property at the time was prosperous and progressive. 

Recognizing the impact of their huge parking lots and roofs, they built a (for the time) state of the art retention pond designed as an "artificial wetlands", with a dike, screened overflow and flume to record flow which ultimately goes to the Merrimack and out to sea.

Along with that goes State and federal permits, sampling and reporting. I'm second in command for responsibility for those permits. A large part of retaining my state license is yearly required training seminars on various trade topics including ecology, chemistry and law.

Road salt absolutely is a topic of discussion in drinking water. 

I'm also First in command for daily weekly monthly yearly nature observations in the pond, off the record. :shaky:

I only say all that so I can talk road salt/environment from the proper perspective. 

Well Mike, when I speak on snow and ice issues I am drawing from almost 50 yrs of experience behind the wheel and road surface monitering…………….

 

I do believe we are on the same page...………...

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