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Dave588

Road salt that destroys fish hatching areas

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Being applied now. I drove most of rt 9 west with 1/2 inch of snow no problem. White, easy driving except for areas that had salt spread on top. Nasty slippery mass slime. Worst places with most salt were right where state signs say it wont be at waterfront in framingham. Sanders without plows and f150 blockers on each were moving onto 495 leaving a huge mess. No plow or broom on road. Sander drivers might not know how to operate those. 

Luckily, i left rt 9 and roads the rest of the way home were not treated, much easier to drive on and less slime on your car.

its criminal that we pay so much for this level of incompetence. There wont be any natural fish left for our grandkids.

Edited by Dave588

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Back in the 1960s almost every little stream or river west of Worcester had native brook trout. While many of those waters are still there, most have lost their brook trout. Of course beavers and land development caused much of it.  But heavy road salt use has to have had an impact. Native brook trout are like the canaries in the coal mine. They demand pure cold water. If not, they simply go away.  

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14 mins ago, bob_G said:

Back in the 1960s almost every little stream or river west of Worcester had native brook trout. While many of those waters are still there, most have lost their brook trout. Of course beavers and land development caused much of it.  But heavy road salt use has to have had an impact. Native brook trout are like the canaries in the coal mine. They demand pure cold water. If not, they simply go away.  

Beavers didn't do it. Yes, behind the dam is warm, but...

Beaver ponds recharge the aquifer so springs and seeps keep the streams cool down slope.

 

Besides wrecking the land directly with development, the greatest harm to brook trout is removing water from the aquifer which supply the essential seeps.

 

I don't believe salt has harmed trout either.

Brookies were recently documented spawning in tidal water at Red Brook.

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15 hours ago, Dave588 said:

Being applied now. I drove most of rt 9 west with 1/2 inch of snow no problem. White, easy driving except for areas that had salt spread on top. Nasty slippery mass slime. Worst places with most salt were right where state signs say it wont be at waterfront in framingham. Sanders without plows and f150 blockers on each were moving onto 495 leaving a huge mess. No plow or broom on road. Sander drivers might not know how to operate those. 

Luckily, i left rt 9 and roads the rest of the way home were not treated, much easier to drive on and less slime on your car.

its criminal that we pay so much for this level of incompetence. There wont be any natural fish left for our grandkids.

The spreaders in use today on the state roads require an operator that can push a button, they are controlled by an on board computer that dispenses de=icing chemicals according to road speed...………..In this state, according to the DOT drivers should be able to travel at the speed limits reguardless of weather conditions.  Pretreating roadways is the biggest crock of BS there ever was, all it does is put more chemicals out where they don't belong.  Look at the trucks that take care of the state roads, ten wheelers, minimum of 50,000 lbs GVW minimum 12 cu. yd. spreaders, 11' power angle snow plows, 10 or 11' wing plows and at least 300 gal. liquid tanks and the going rate is close to $200 bucks an hr..

 

My buddy up the road has two of these trucks, they were called out this afternoon at 3 PM for "sever snow squalls", it's now 4:30 and not a single snow flake yet, in the Belchertown DOT depot there is 10 hired trucks, 2 front end loaders, three DOT trucks and at least 3 DOT managers waiting...……………….

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29 mins ago, bob_G said:

Back in the 1960s almost every little stream or river west of Worcester had native brook trout. While many of those waters are still there, most have lost their brook trout. Of course beavers and land development caused much of it.  But heavy road salt use has to have had an impact. Native brook trout are like the canaries in the coal mine. They demand pure cold water. If not, they simply go away.  

I can't say the beaver dams are hurting the native brookies as I do catch a lot of them in these ponds but the road de-icing chemicals do.  I fish Flat Brook here in Ware and consider many parts of it  a natural stream.  Native brook trout from Rt. 9 downstream are few and far in,between and I blame heavy salt use on Rt. 9 however the same brook, heading upstream, is a great place to catch these fish.  The same for the Swift River downstream of the RT. 9 bridge, a lot of hatchery fish but natives, not so much...……...

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The beavers did contribute to the decline, but indirectly.  I'll explain.

Beavers dam up large sections of cold running, highly oxygenated water. In the process they create what amounts to standing swamps. The water temperature rises. In addition, the sand and gravel areas they need to spawn in the fall get covered with decaying leaves, pine needles and muck.  In the areas I hunt, I knew of many remote spawning beds that were used for decades, and probably long begore I was born,  but now they are under 5' of stagnant water.  

Another byproduct of the beaver swamps is the influx of great blue herons. They've thrived as a result of the unchecked beaver population. Great blue herons and kingfishers devestate brookies under those conditions.

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6 mins ago, bob_G said:

The beavers did contribute to the decline, but indirectly.  I'll explain.

Beavers dam up large sections of cold running, highly oxygenated water. In the process they create what amounts to standing swamps. The water temperature rises. In addition, the sand and gravel areas they need to spawn in the fall get covered with decaying leaves, pine needles and muck.  In the areas I hunt, I knew of many remote spawning beds that were used for decades, and probably long begore I was born,  but now they are under 5' of stagnant water.  

Another byproduct of the beaver swamps is the influx of great blue herons. They've thrived as a result of the unchecked beaver population. Great blue herons and kingfishers devestate brookies under those conditions.

Can't argue what you are saying and observing, but, it's all natural...………………..When the beavers have harvested the last of the available forage they move on, the dam rots away and another meadow is formed, the trout will survive in another waterway and the herons and kingfishers are also native to this land...…….. Nature as it should be.

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2 mins ago, bob_G said:

The beavers did contribute to the decline, but indirectly.  I'll explain.

Beavers dam up large sections of cold running, highly oxygenated water. In the process they create what amounts to standing swamps. The water temperature rises. In addition, the sand and gravel areas they need to spawn in the fall get covered with decaying leaves, pine needles and muck.  In the areas I hunt, I knew of many remote spawning beds that were used for decades, and probably long begore I was born,  but now they are under 5' of stagnant water.  

Another byproduct of the beaver swamps is the influx of great blue herons. They've thrived as a result of the unchecked beaver population. Great blue herons and kingfishers devestate brookies under those conditions.

The beaver/brookie thing is something I have spent an embarrassing amount of time arguing, researching, walking, hiking, poking, trespassing and more tresspassing on. 

 

I definitely don't need it splained.

All the arguments;

Beaver dams warm the water

Beaver dams block migration 

Beaver dams smother spawning grounds

 

All these things I've researched in the literature and in person on a series of native streams I have access to in the suburbs. 

 

I already know the beaver vs trout thing is too old, too well entrenched and too emotional for me to win an argument here. Been there done that.

I won't waste time with a dozen links nobody will read.

I won't waste time with stories of trout spawning in pristine clean gravel in otherwise muddy dead water because beaver dams held back sediments. 

 

I leave it with the logic that first impressed me;

Every single species of trout, char and salmon  - ON THE ENTIRE PLANET  - evolved in watersheds with beaver.

Every one.

Around the world.

Splain THAT. 

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1 min ago, b-ware said:

Can't argue what you are saying and observing, but, it's all natural...………………..When the beavers have harvested the last of the available forage they move on, the dam rots away and another meadow is formed, the trout will survive in another waterway and the herons and kingfishers are also native to this land...…….. Nature as it should be.

I agree with you Bernie. But IMO the beaver situation is similar to the seal problem here on the cape. The beavers are large rodents, that destroy forests and dam up and flood waterways. They're similar to seals in that they have no enemies. With trapping gone, they reproduce unchecked. Always expanding their range in the process. 

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4 mins ago, mikez2 said:

The beaver/brookie thing is something I have spent an embarrassing amount of time arguing, researching, walking, hiking, poking, trespassing and more tresspassing on. 

 

I definitely don't need it splained.

All the arguments;

Beaver dams warm the water

Beaver dams block migration 

Beaver dams smother spawning grounds

 

All these things I've researched in the literature and in person on a series of native streams I have access to in the suburbs. 

 

I already know the beaver vs trout thing is too old, too well entrenched and too emotional for me to win an argument here. Been there done that.

I won't waste time with a dozen links nobody will read.

I won't waste time with stories of trout spawning in pristine clean gravel in otherwise muddy dead water because beaver dams held back sediments. 

 

I leave it with the logic that first impressed me;

Every single species of trout, char and salmon  - ON THE ENTIRE PLANET  - evolved in watersheds with beaver.

Every one.

Around the world.

Splain THAT. 

Then explain why native Ma brook trout are teetering on the brink of disappearing? 

The brookies were thriving when I was a kid way back in the 1960s.  Now, they're gone.

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1 min ago, bob_G said:

I agree with you Bernie. But IMO the beaver situation is similar to the seal problem here on the cape. The beavers are large rodents, that destroy forests and dam up and flood waterways. They're similar to seals in that they have no enemies. With trapping gone, they reproduce unchecked. Always expanding their range in the process. 

I think your a little off base Bob, beavers have many enemies, including them selves, they do drown, they also poisen themselves with their feces when the lodges are frozen solid and many animals hunt and eat them, their young are also preyed upon by eagles and such .  They are trapped especialy in suburban areas.

 

PS, it makes no sense at all to compare any animal with seals, the seal problem we have now was created by man back in the 1800s by putting a bounty on them and there is also no data supporting whether or not they are overpopulated.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

5 mins ago, b-ware said:

I think your a little off base Bob, beavers have many enemies, including them selves, they do drown, they also poisen themselves with their feces when the lodges are frozen solid and many animals hunt and eat them, their young are also preyed upon by eagles and such .  They are trapped especialy in suburban areas.

 

PS, it makes no sense at all to compare any animal with seals, the seal problem we have now was created by man back in the 1800s by putting a bounty on them and there is also no data supporting whether or not they are overpopulated.

And our present beaver problem was created when Ma voters banned leghold traps in Nov of 96.

Edited by bob_G

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13 mins ago, bob_G said:

And our present beaver problem was created when Ma voters banned leghold traps in Nov of 96.

That's true Bob, but at the present they use the submersible body traps that drowns the beaver quickly and seeing that they are set underwater, they do not endanger domestic animals. Many places where brook trout and many other forms of fish used to be have evolved into a different habitat, that is great part of being an outdoors man, learn to change and take enjoyment from new experiances and places...……………...

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