Angler #1

Making the Canal a Real Recreational

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Obviously the current methods of commercial fishing is not sustainable or else the fish stocks would be perfectly fine. The definition of sustainable is “able to be maintained at a certain rate or level”. I don’t think that describes any species of fish right now, except for maybe sea robins. Certainly not cod. 

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7 mins ago, MakoMike said:

Poaching is never good, but I doubt that eliminating all poaching, even if it could be done, wouldn't put a dent in the problem. 

Agree. Imo, the numbers aren't high in comparison to other mortality sources

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2 mins ago, z-man said:

Obviously the current methods of commercial fishing is not sustainable or else the fish stocks would be perfectly fine. The definition of sustainable is “able to be maintained at a certain rate or level”. I don’t think that describes any species of fish right now, except for maybe sea robins. Certainly not cod. 

Then you haven't been paying attention. The problem with striped bass is the unsustainable level of RECREATIONAL fishing. You also seem to be ignoring the statistics for haddock, pollack, sea bass and scup, all of which are within "sustainable" levels.

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9 mins ago, rst3 said:

@Angler #1 to your point on localized, tribal populations removed from the ecosystem:

 

I don't know about other species, but this point has been well established with cod. The inshore cod of yesteryear had specific drift patterns with their distinct spawning grounds/eggs in the WMCCurrent. Once removed, and depopulated, the inshore strain no longer released their eggs along that track and so it disappeared.

 

Offshore cod have different drift patterns with their eggs. ...So repopulating the inshore grounds with inshore cod may take many, many decades, even lifetimes, to restablish those fish via outlier egg/fry from offshore fish.

Thank you for posting the above. It is great to see others have put some time into researching the lack of  some resources we all once had to fish on . The commonality between the cod and striped bass for me is very similar , Only speaking about the local tribes and excluding those from down south, but who knows if that may also be part of the reason as well.  When I was catching one of New England favorite ground fish from the shore of our coast line I have always felt that spawning of some sort was going on. Like mackerel smelt herring pogies have been doing for decades in many of the local estuary. It sure does get more complicating when one looks at the whole picture ]  

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4 mins ago, MakoMike said:

Nope, I agree with Tim, its the simple fact of millions of recreational fishermen catching  and killing too many striped bass. Poaching is never good, but I doubt that eliminating all poaching, even if it could be done, wouldn't put a dent in the problem. The present daily bag limit is one fish, toucan't go any lower than that. If you up the minimum size you'll use wind up with both higher release mortality and higher levels of poaching. IMHO the only way to significantly reduce mortality, and this has proven to be true across multiple species, is to have a shorter season. And I don't mean a closed season during the winter when most people aren't fishing and there aren't many, if any, fish around anyway. 

Mike,

I disagree with you on something.  The recreational limit is not one fish as you stated. It's one fish per day, everyday. In many cases, this can mean 7 fish per week, and easily 20 plus per month when the fish are around. 

This is not pure conjecture on my part. I've witnessed these acts with my own eyes.  If you were here you'd see it too. The same retired guys.  Day after day, parading up and down the service road with a 25 pounder on their bike.  The sad part is, its all legal.

 

 

 

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10 mins ago, MakoMike said:

Then you haven't been paying attention. The problem with striped bass is the unsustainable level of RECREATIONAL fishing. You also seem to be ignoring the statistics for haddock, pollack, sea bass and scup, all of which are within "sustainable" levels.

My comment was in response to you and Kones1 discussion about draggers and sustainability but I forgot to hit the quote button. It was not in response to recreational bass. 

Edited by z-man

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29 mins ago, Angler #1 said:

If both users groups are unwilling to come together in any type of compromise then we will see the same loss as my cod fish .

Carl, the problem is not both user groups (as historically represented) being unwilling to come together - it's that the recreational user group is being represented by industry advocacy organizations and NOT non-financially vested recreational fishermen.  So what ends up happening is two INDUSTRY sides are meeting - and those two INDUSTRY sides come to an agreement - they want to kill fish - they want to kill them even after they are in trouble - they don't want to be accountable for rebuilding the populations once they destroy them.  The compromises the two INDUSTRY groups make with each other are never going to include reducing mortality unless the federal government forces them - and they have been working on ways to stop the federal government from being able to hold them responsible.  

 

The other way - and this is the hard one - is for non-financially vested recreational fishermen to start to stand up for themselves - to stop letting their voices be represented by the industry advocacy organizations that SAY they speak for them. This gives those groups power they don't deserve and haven't earned - and only because recreational anglers DON'T KNOW they are being spoken for by industry advocacy organizations.  Recreational anglers need to start making noise - start leaving organizations that don't fight for what you want - start spending your money with charters and guides and boats and shops that fight FOR responsible and sustainable striped bass management.  Let the ones that got us here starve...reward the ones that are working to get us OUT of this situation.  Boats/shops that don't know where they stand or with whom they stand, let them starve until they care enough to figure it out :read:

 

TimS

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Carl,

I've respectfully asked you this simple question before, but you seem reluctant to reply.

You say the striped bass is in trouble, and we all need to gird out loins to prevent another collapse.

Are you planning on curtaling your fishing activities with your "young commercial friend" in 2019 as a result?

I quit 15 years ago out of respect for the resource. Never had any regrets.

If I can do it, why can't you? :)

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50 mins ago, Kones1 said:

Please don’t get all mad at an old guy for expressing his feelings as I feel I’ve been around long enough to have witnessed and lived through things that are repeating themselves again. With all due respect gentlemen 

Kones, mah friend, I certainly was NOT getting mad at you, not even close :wave:  I was offering my opinion as well, based on the couple/few posts of yours I read in this thread - I was pointing out in those couple posts I didn't see you mention recreational fishing. I wasn't saying you are wrong or don't deserve an opinion or that I'm mad...I truly enjoy these conversations and very much appreciate you "old" guys and your experience :th:  I apologize if my post read otherwise :)

 

TimS

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41 mins ago, MakoMike said:

IMHO the only way to significantly reduce mortality, and this has proven to be true across multiple species, is to have a shorter season. And I don't mean a closed season during the winter when most people aren't fishing and there aren't many, if any, fish around anyway. 

That is a good point. Why is the striper season open year round in New England?  Almost all the other species have open and closed seasons. Shut the striper season down in the spring and fall for a couple months. 

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1 hour ago, Kones1 said:

Comm  guys don’t poach ? You are kidding right?

I don't recall anyone suggesting that :)

 

TimS

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1 hour ago, rst3 said:

@Angler #1 to your point on localized, tribal populations removed from the ecosystem:

 

I don't know about other species, but this point has been well established with cod. The inshore cod of yesteryear had specific drift patterns with their distinct spawning grounds/eggs in the WMCCurrent. Once removed, and depopulated, the inshore strain no longer released their eggs along that track and so it disappeared.

 

Offshore cod have different drift patterns with their eggs. ...So repopulating the inshore grounds with inshore cod may take many, many decades, even lifetimes, to restablish those fish via outlier egg/fry from offshore fish.

Never heard of this before, very interesting :th:  Followup question:  when you say "inshore" - you mean on the beach? I'm wondering how inshore/offshore we are talking about. I always believed abundance bought fish to the fringes of their range. Did the beach cod fishing disappear before the boat cod fishing began to suffer? 

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4 mins ago, TimS said:

Never heard of this before, very interesting :th:  Followup question:  when you say "inshore" - you mean on the beach? I'm wondering how inshore/offshore we are talking about. I always believed abundance bought fish to the fringes of their range. Did the beach cod fishing disappear before the boat cod fishing began to suffer? 

I would have to say yes on that question , but that was in a time when many things wrong with our resources was happening as well. 

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14 mins ago, TimS said:

Never heard of this before, very interesting :th:  Followup question:  when you say "inshore" - you mean on the beach? I'm wondering how inshore/offshore we are talking about. I always believed abundance bought fish to the fringes of their range. Did the beach cod fishing disappear before the boat cod fishing began to suffer? 

Tim, 

My dad and I caught many cod in the canal in the 1960s and 70s. There were times we caught them in july and August. The beach fishing was insane throughout the 70s. There used to be a group of us from Monument Beach who'd fish Scorton Creek from the beach each winter. We'd all return with coolers full of cod. 

I moved to the Cape in 79. The beach and inshore boat fishing dropped off, but was still ok. Not great, but ok. 

The fishery collapsed (for me) in the early 80s.  Both beach and canal. They were gone, never to be seen again.

Tony Stezcko and I talked about this often.  He used to catch cod on eels off Nauset while fishing bass. Used to see them breaking in tbe surf. The night he caught Bertha, he was catching nothing but cod until Bertha came along and changed his life. Really miss talking to that guy, a wealth of knowledge.

 

Edited by bob_G

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