Angler #1

Making the Canal a Real Recreational

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15 hours ago, TimS said:

More tragically, there will always be recreational anglers that think they need to justify the cost of their 32' Yellowfin by killing everything they catch every time they fish. (**It should be noted that I love fishing from a boat or kayak...for everything but bass...I'm no boat hater)  I think folks that mostly fish from shore don't understand how many fish guys in boats kill every trip they go out. It's an unsustainable mentality.  People cringe when I explain to them that surf fishing for striped bass could release every single bass they catch and it wouldn't make a meaningful difference to the striped bass population. Private recreational boats kill the overwhelming majority of striped bass every year. It's not commercial fishing, it's not party boats, it's not charter boats - it's the guy and his five buddies filling the cooler every time they can because the boat cost so much and gas is expensive and the slip costs money, etc, etc.

 

This is from 2017 (https://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recreational/queries/ )

Shore -                          3,008K  #

Part Boat -                     182K #

Charter Boat -               3,601K #

Private/Rental Boats - 31,293K #

 

Boats combined - 35 million pounds

Shore - 3 million pounds

 

I think commercial landings are around 5-6 million annually.  If they closed the canal completely to fishing it wouldn't make even the slightest difference to the striped bass and their present decline. The boats that kill the vast majority of fish annually would be unaffected.

 

TimS 

I'm really surprised the Charter Boat number is so low compared to the Private/Rental Boats and even more surprised that Charter Boats are so close to Shore fishermen.  The primary reason I'm scratching my head is because these 6-pack charters usually make two trips per day when the fish are running, as opposed to Private/Rentals.  And on top of that, they often keep the "boat limit" meaning that the captain and mate 'give' their fish to the customers.  So if there are 6 guys on the charter, plus the captain and mate and it's a 2-fish limit - instead of keeping 12 fish, they keep 16.  So that can be up to 32 fish per day, for just a single charter boat.  (And then in NJ, there's the ridiculous 'bonus tag' that anyone can buy to allow one to keep yet another fish....maddening.) 

 

I guess the sheer number of Private/Rental Boats out there is what makes the difference, but my experience is that the weekend warriors' catch rate is a fraction of Charters....however, the data apparently doesn't support that. 

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16 hours ago, TimS said:

More tragically, there will always be recreational anglers that think they need to justify the cost of their 32' Yellowfin by killing everything they catch every time they fish. (**It should be noted that I love fishing from a boat or kayak...for everything but bass...I'm no boat hater)  I think folks that mostly fish from shore don't understand how many fish guys in boats kill every trip they go out. It's an unsustainable mentality.  People cringe when I explain to them that surf fishing for striped bass could release every single bass they catch and it wouldn't make a meaningful difference to the striped bass population. Private recreational boats kill the overwhelming majority of striped bass every year. It's not commercial fishing, it's not party boats, it's not charter boats - it's the guy and his five buddies filling the cooler every time they can because the boat cost so much and gas is expensive and the slip costs money, etc, etc.

 

This is from 2017 (https://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recreational/queries/ )

Shore -                          3,008K  #

Part Boat -                     182K #

Charter Boat -               3,601K #

Private/Rental Boats - 31,293K #

 

Boats combined - 35 million pounds

Shore - 3 million pounds

 

I think commercial landings are around 5-6 million annually.  If they closed the canal completely to fishing it wouldn't make even the slightest difference to the striped bass and their present decline. The boats that kill the vast majority of fish annually would be unaffected.

 

TimS 

Those stats are equally true for almost every species.

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1 hour ago, daves745t said:

I'm really surprised the Charter Boat number is so low compared to the Private/Rental Boats and even more surprised that Charter Boats are so close to Shore fishermen.  The primary reason I'm scratching my head is because these 6-pack charters usually make two trips per day when the fish are running, as opposed to Private/Rentals.  And on top of that, they often keep the "boat limit" meaning that the captain and mate 'give' their fish to the customers.  So if there are 6 guys on the charter, plus the captain and mate and it's a 2-fish limit - instead of keeping 12 fish, they keep 16.  So that can be up to 32 fish per day, for just a single charter boat.  (And then in NJ, there's the ridiculous 'bonus tag' that anyone can buy to allow one to keep yet another fish....maddening.) 

 

I guess the sheer number of Private/Rental Boats out there is what makes the difference, but my experience is that the weekend warriors' catch rate is a fraction of Charters....however, the data apparently doesn't support that. 

I don't know the ratios, but I think it's safe to say private/rental boats out number charter boats by a hundred...maybe two hundred...to one. Also, I don't know of any charter boats that sail twice a day - never heard of that...not saying it isn't SOP somewhere else, but I've never heard of a 1/2 day charter.

 

The fact that charters are landing almost 12% of what the armada of private boats is landing isn't surprising to me. As the bass get harder to find experience should be a big factor - now with all the heroes and social media, that's no longer the case. Bites are reported in real time and the horde is on their way immediately. It's sad when the folks that had nothing to do with striped bass recovery can't wait to destroy it as fast as possible.

 

TimS

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12 mins ago, TimS said:

I don't know the ratios, but I think it's safe to say private/rental boats out number charter boats by a hundred...maybe two hundred...to one. Also, I don't know of any charter boats that sail twice a day - never heard of that...not saying it isn't SOP somewhere else, but I've never heard of a 1/2 day charter.

 

TimS

I think its more like 5,000 to 1.

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10 mins ago, MakoMike said:

I think its more like 5,000 to 1.

I'm sure it varies by port...I was being conservative at a couple hundred to one, no doubt :)

 

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Tim,just about every charter business on Cape Cod run half day charters,except for tuna charters,which typically go by a tide either a one tide or 2 tide.been that way for at least 15 years.as far as weather goes in the past commercials had 4 days to fish the last 2 or 3 years it is 2 days.this past season many of those days were lost due to weather.typically i get out about 50 times on my kayak this season it was down to about 15 times due to weather.in years past the bodies of larger fish and smaller fish seemed to be more separate schools,feeding in differant locations last season they seemed to be comingled.and yes the number of large fish is drastically decreasing around the Cape,but the total number of fish is if anything going up regardless of what others are seeing in other states

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3 hours ago, l.i.fish.in.vt said:

Tim,just about every charter business on Cape Cod run half day charters,except for tuna charters,which typically go by a tide either a one tide or 2 tide.been that way for at least 15 years.as far as weather goes in the past commercials had 4 days to fish the last 2 or 3 years it is 2 days.this past season many of those days were lost due to weather.typically i get out about 50 times on my kayak this season it was down to about 15 times due to weather.in years past the bodies of larger fish and smaller fish seemed to be more separate schools,feeding in differant locations last season they seemed to be comingled.and yes the number of large fish is drastically decreasing around the Cape,but the total number of fish is if anything going up regardless of what others are seeing in other states

Interesting. I don't think you could FIND a 1/2 day charter in NJ...or NY that I'm aware of. That's because the fishing sucks...in full day charters limits are rare enough. I really had no idea charters would fish 1/2 day...never heard of it or seen it, thanks for the info :th:

 

Also had no idea commercials were down to 2 days a week - I bet the total number of commercial bass permits has probably increased through the roof in the past ten years or so. One good day with THOUSANDS of 'commercial' fishermen out there could probably put them so over quota. Just guessing...but it would make sense that increases in potential landings per day would require some mechanism of stopping harvest while the last commercial day's catch was tallied.  

 

If you guys are seeing an increase in the numbers of fish, even mostly smaller ones, it's the only place I'm aware of. I just checked the MRIP numbers: - it looks like you were correct for 2017 - the most fish landed/released since 2006 :b: 

Chart is Mass recreational striped bass estimates from the same link I've posted above - I added red highlight for fish that were KEPT and green highlight for fish that were RELEASED:

 

Mass-rec-harvest-release-2000-2018.png

 

 

Unfortunately, it looks like an outlier for Mass - the years before it and the year after were much more 'normal'. Recreational anglers estimated release in numbers of striped bass:

2014: 6.4 million

2015: 4.5 million

2016: 6.3 million

2017: 12.9 million

2018: 5.5 million

That makes 2017 an anomaly unless the preliminary numbers for 2018 end up being changed drastically...and they could be.

Also of note, the number of "observed" or counted fish harvested recreationally:

2016: 106K fish

2017: 208K fish

2018: 336K fish

Observed harvest went up over 100K fish each of those three years :eek:

 

Reported landed recreational for Mass striped bass:

2016: 123K

2017: 184K

2018: 75K

While observed landings went up 128 THOUSAND - "reported" rec landings went down by 110 THOUSAND between 2017 and 2018.  **2018 numbers are preliminary...but that's weird to see observed landings climb by 50% and reported landings to drop 60% in the same year :squid:

 

Thank you for the additional info, I'm still surprised to hear there is such a thing as 1/2 day charters :squid:  FYI, if the captain and crew keep their limit on both trips, they are poachers and should be made an example of - not saying they do it...but it was mentioned in a previous post. Wouldn't be hard to prove on social media.  If they posted two photos of a 'boat limit' including the captain and/or crew's on the same day = poaching bastages that should be made an example of.

 

TimS

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Posted (edited) · Report post

44 mins ago, TimS said:

Thank you for the additional info, I'm still surprised to hear there is such a thing as 1/2 day charters :squid:

1/2 day charters are popular in RI as well...

Edited by steveforte

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Tim,in Mass it is a possesion law,so as long as the capt and crew do not have 2 limits in their possesion at one time they can keep their limt on both tripsthis was already hashed out in the thread about rec and com limits

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1 hour ago, l.i.fish.in.vt said:

Tim,in Mass it is a possesion law,so as long as the capt and crew do not have 2 limits in their possesion at one time they can keep their limt on both tripsthis was already hashed out in the thread about rec and com limits

How do they legally distribute those fish? If anyone on the charter takes one of the crew's fish, they will be over the limit. If the crew keeps them for themselves from both trips, they are over the limit. There's no legal path forward for them - while they might be legal while on the water, when they get back to land someone is going to be "possessing" more than their limit. That, I believe, would make them poachers. Even if they drove them home between trips, they would be possessing more than their limit, right?

 

Trips ONE:

4 guys + crew of 2 = 6. That's six bass - everything is legal.

They get back to the dock - guys each keep their one, crew each keeps their one - everything is legal.

 

Trip TWO - same day:

4 guys + crew of 2 = 6. That's six bass - everything is legal.

They get back to the dock - guys each keep their one - crew already each has their limit from first trip, they can't possess the 2 additional fish. They also can't give them to the guys who each already have their limit. That makes those two additional fish illegal and the captain/crew poachers. No?

 

TimS

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2 hours ago, TimS said:

Interesting. I don't think you could FIND a 1/2 day charter in NJ...or NY that I'm aware of. That's because the fishing sucks...in full day charters limits are rare enough. I really had no idea charters would fish 1/2 day...never heard of it or seen it, thanks for the info :th:

 

TimS

 

8 mins ago, TimS said:

How do they legally distribute those fish? If anyone on the charter takes one of the crew's fish, they will be over the limit. If the crew keeps them for themselves from both trips, they are over the limit. There's no legal path forward for them - while they might be legal while on the water, when they get back to land someone is going to be "possessing" more than their limit. That, I believe, would make them poachers. Even if they drove them home between trips, they would be possessing more than their limit, right?

 

Trips ONE:

4 guys + crew of 2 = 6. That's six bass - everything is legal.

They get back to the dock - guys each keep their one, crew each keeps their one - everything is legal.

 

Trip TWO - same day:

4 guys + crew of 2 = 6. That's six bass - everything is legal.

They get back to the dock - guys each keep their one - crew already each has their limit from first trip, they can't possess the 2 additional fish. They also can't give them to the guys who each already have their limit. That makes those two additional fish illegal and the captain/crew poachers. No?

 

TimS

The NJ Charters certainly aren't running twice a day all of the time, they'll only do it when large schools push through, the word gets out and they're turning away customers who only fish a couple of times per year to get their picture taken holding big, dead fish.  It's usually a bunker bite where the bass are easy to find and it's equally easy to fill a live well.  I can't speak to the NY Charters. 

 

As to your second point, I couldn't agree more - any captain/mate who keeps the 'boat limit' twice a day is poaching fish that second time out. Period. End of story.  However, unless a Conservation Officer sees them out there twice in one day and/or checks them back at the dock twice in one day, they'll never get caught.  The likelihood of that happening is nil and they know it. 

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36 mins ago, daves745t said:

As to your second point, I couldn't agree more - any captain/mate who keeps the 'boat limit' twice a day is poaching fish that second time out. Period. End of story.  However, unless a Conservation Officer sees them out there twice in one day and/or checks them back at the dock twice in one day, they'll never get caught.  The likelihood of that happening is nil and they know it. 

Businesses that poach don't only need to worry about Conservation Officers, they need to worry about the court of public opinion. Boats that show photos of two "boat limits" on the same day including the crews limit on both trips - unless someone can point out how the possession limit wouldn't be legally exceeded - would be poaching.  Getting a ticket isn't the worst thing that can happen to a charter boat that poaches...their customers may seek a boat that doesn't poach :read:

 

TimS

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5 mins ago, MakoMike said:

@TimS in Montauk 1/2 day charters are not the least bit unusual.

All news to me, Mike  :o

 

TimS

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Tim, if the captain and crew give the fish to anyone not in possesion of a daily limit,they are no longer in possesion and can keep their limit on the second trip,not ethical but legal.it is the same as a capt going out in the morning catching his commercial limit,selling the fish,then running an afternoon charter,he can still legally have a rec limit for himself on the afternoon trip

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