Angler #1

Making the Canal a Real Recreational

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303 posts in this topic

29 mins ago, DAQ said:

Defining commercial fishing is the easy part. Things get silly when people introduce semantics and word parsing. 

 

If a person is fishing for commercial profit, (doesn't have to be for their profit), they are commercial fishing, even if they are not a "commercial fisherman".

 

Yes, that has been established - fishing with a commercial fisherman is considered commercial fishing even though the person isn’t a commercial fisherman. This thread isn’t about defining a commercial fisherman or commercial fishing - even though it certainly covered this areas along the way. Do you believe someone that fished on a commercial fisherman’s boat should recuse themselves from having a thoughts about restricting commercial fishing in one specific area?  

 

I’m still trying to understand why folks appear to think Carl shouldn’t be allowed to start a thread about commercial fishing because they’ve fished with a commercial fisherman. Is his opinion invalid because he fished with a commercial fisherman? One could argue that he’s more suited for this discussion having fished with a commercial fisherman. It’s weird how this discussion became about Carl :)

 

TimS

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11 mins ago, Somethingsfishy said:

Let’s all give Tim S. a hardy thank you for sharing some time with us. 

Much appreciated.

I like interesting discussions :)

 

I like discussions about striped bass, I feel there is so much disinformation out there. The more people understand about the way striped bass are managed the more likely they are to positively affect the process. Even if just to help other people better understand when they are being misled :read:  And that’s going to become very important in the near future when the lies are going to be spread by the harvest happy folks who are being paid to convince you everything is fine with the striped bass population. 

 

TimS

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Just commenting on post 134, paid and harvested are inseparable. 

 

As for someone having to recuse themselves from the conversation? No he shouldn't have to. I can discard, discount, or ignore opinions and ideas if I want to. I do, however, think his stance is ridiculous and hypocritical given his commercial fishing activities.

 

 

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He fished in a boat with a commercial fisherman - that makes him a hypocrite to suggest a land access area be recreational fishing only? Again, it wouldn’t help the stocks and I think it’s a waste of effort that could accomplish something applied elsewhere. Just trying to better understand where the hypocrisy kicks in? 

 

TimS

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Hypocrisy kicks in when he commercially fishes for the same fish (literally) he is trying to eliminate other resource users from taking.

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7 hours ago, TimS said:

Again, nobody is denying that Carl fishes with a commercial fisherman. What does that have to do with starting a discussion about commercial fishing in the canal? Your previous objection was that Carl is "preaching catch and release" - we've established that he is not and has not. Suggesting the canal be closed to commercial fishing isn't "preaching catch and release".  I'm trying to understand your objection here - I don't think anyone has responded that they think making the canal recreational only is a good idea - the OP, like yourself, can start any conversation they want provided it's respectful and relevant to the forum it's started in. The discussion should be about the topic, not about the OP.

 

TimS

Tim so wait OP is not pushing a fly fishing only catch and release single barbless hook rules for whole canal agenda.  :waah:

 

I thought the goverment was all about special interest groups clearly the micro group of guys fly fishing the canal should get what they want right since they are the smallest of all the groups :angel:

 

Great feedback on the points raised earlier.  I while would love to see catch fly fishing only section somehwere on Ditch its probably in reality a bad idea that only helps me.  However I am a realistic person and Fly rods for average angler means a lot of tired and dead cow bass post fight so it would probably increase mortality exponetially compared to catch and release conventional aurfcasters.  I dont think its fair to deny everyone a chance to keep a striper either from the ditch. So catch and release is probably too drastic a rule for the whole ditch.

 

 I think a good start would be strict pay to play permits to fish Canal that solely goes to funding a large EPO presence at the ditch is what I want to see.  make cost reasonable maybe $50 per year. make displaying permit on shoulder or hat mandatory while fishing.  EPO on bicycle rides path if permit not displayed talks to angler.  If angler had no permit $50 fine and fishing gear forfeit.  2000 permits sold is $100,000 that could fund a lot of patrols. I am guessing way more than 2000 angler fish canal so funds raised should be higher and support large EPO presence.  Enforcement is main issue at Canal even currrent rules fully enforced would be a big step up from current situation.

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Well I see that we have had some conversation going around here and as usual some valid points have been discussed . To answer some

 

My first and for most concern is saving what can be saved from the resources we see here in the Cape Cod Canal region. It matters not if it is recreational or commercial to me. 

 

Knowing that we have a large poaching community with in this fisheries , judging from all of those who not only post here about it, personal observations, but by the environmental police I speak with . The amount of dead floating fish during observed suicide mode days has also been a concern, that I have shared with many here over the years and I have made contacts with law enforcement over these many years to attempt to slow it down . It has not been enough.

 

Some of the biggest complainers each year expound upon these conditions that not only do they post about, but bitch because nothing was being done to stem this ever increasing flow of dead fish and the lack of law enforcement to provide more enforcement.  Along with  the Army Corps lack of involvement  in this situation.

We had a discussion here late last year here as I was in the middle of working with my post in Honoring the Vietnam Veterans from Sandwich with a Monument for the Sandwich Vietnam Veterans who served . I was honored BY the Chamber of Commerce and the Town Of Sandwich and given the title of  Ambassador for the year for all of my hard work on this 2 year project. During this process I was able to get some support for accomplishing some changes with in the Canal Region for our Striped Bass. . It would take a  combined  effort of folks who were like minded and could work together in a collaborative manner to accomplish any changes that would remain neutral to the user groups , but affect some positive outcome for the bass resource. That I believe with all of my heart can be accomplished with the correct approach. 

 

I had a suggestion that was thrown out to see if it had any legs and the next thing I see is personal attacks , which have nothing what so ever to do with what we were attempting to get done for the resource itself. Thank you Tim for shutting them down . Had the conversation stayed on course perhaps we may have found some common goal and achieved it. I have found that these continuing personal attacks are counter productive in having the conversation that is needed to provide us with further resource protection to the Canal Region bass population. Again my goal has and always will remain focused on the bass resource , my idea may not be correct in the eyes of many and that is fine , then through some collective process and other idea may surface that is . Is that not worth exploring, if we say we all respect the resource like we all say we do.

 

 

 

 

 

I do not support catch and release here in the canal , because of the ever moving currents  cause many of the released fish to become disoriented and eventually drown. This situation also increases ten fold during blitz situations as has I have witness over many years fishing this water way. 

 

I have and will always support the legal taking by permitted commercial fishermen and I have personally attested to that in another time when I would speak at the hearings and do not support any recreational grab of what ever there legal quota  may be , I have been falsely accused of doing things I never have done. One needs to objectively understand the reason why ?  

 

If you think that making the canal a one fish catch place or true recreational[Where only one fish can be taken per day  ] is a recreational grab as some have posted then your assumption is totally incorrect . It can still be where you can only catch one fish to keep per day[ as many have posted more then enough to feed an average family ] or not . We needed to get to  point objectively that benefits the bass resource if possible , but some feel that the conversation is not to there liking and have decided to derail it, so that is where we sit . 

 

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10 hours ago, DAQ said:

Hypocrisy kicks in when he commercially fishes for the same fish (literally) he is trying to eliminate other resource users from taking.

That's the thing, he was proposing 7 miles of shoreline be closed to commercial fishing. He wasn't suggesting the elimination of any resource users. I must be looking at this from more degrees of separation than you, that certainly happens and is one reason why I keep trying to better understand someone's position.  Hypothetical situation:  Let's say John Doe has commercially striped bass fished for years - one day he starts a discussion suggesting we should impose more strict regulations on commercial striped bass fishing. Is he a hypocrite? I killed a lotta bass in the early 90s for friends and family - later when the population got hammered by the hundreds of thousands of new bass fishermen, I stopped killing them and started trying to educate others as to why it's important to release them. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

4 hours ago, The Graveyard Shift said:

2000 permits sold is $100,000 that could fund a lot of patrols. I am guessing way more than 2000 angler fish canal so funds raised should be higher and support large EPO presence.  Enforcement is main issue at Canal even current rules fully enforced would be a big step up from current situation.

Unfortunately, it would probably cost $400,000/year in 'administrative' costs to run the program. That's the problem with asking the government to start and run a program like this. They would probably have to create a whole new department with a manager and staff...now the $50 fee turns into $125 and goes up every year so the new department can hire more people and grow the bureaucracy :freak:   

 

TimS

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16 hours ago, Gotcow? said:

In tell you with absolute certainty that SB successfully spawn in the Connecticut river.

 

Not trying to be augmentative here. Just statement of fact that I have personally seen over the last couple of years. 

They actually spawn in A LOT of rivers.....

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If the end goal is to have less stripers killed per year and have a better fishery for tourism, then wouldn’t it make more sense to petition to shut down commercial fishing in all of MA instead of just the canal?

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14 hours ago, TimS said:

My understanding is that they control all of the above - the roads, the rip rap, the land around it...there's even a little shack and a gate, I believe they own and operate that, too. Not based on anything other than what I've heard from folks while up there and read in discussions here :)

 

TimS

Just for the hell of it, I tried to look it up. While I couldn't find any definitive map of the land the ACOE controls, It does appear that you are correct, thy control a more than just the canal itself. All of the town parks along the canal are leased to the towns by the ACOE. I'd wager at this point that the ACOE controls all of the land up to the roads that parallel the canal.

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2 hours ago, Angler #1 said:

I do not support catch and release here in the canal , because of the ever moving currents  cause many of the released fish to become disoriented and eventually drown. 

What? Can a fish drown?

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1 hour ago, TimS said:

That's the thing, he was proposing 7 miles of shoreline be closed to commercial fishing. He wasn't suggesting the elimination of any resource users. I must be looking at this from more degrees of separation than you, that certainly happens and is one reason why I keep trying to better understand someone's position.  Hypothetical situation:  Let's say John Doe has commercially striped bass fished for years - one day he starts a discussion suggesting we should impose more strict regulations on commercial striped bass fishing. Is he a hypocrite? I killed a lotta bass in the early 90s for friends and family - later when the population got hammered by the hundreds of thousands of new bass fishermen, I stopped killing them and started trying to educate others as to why it's important to release them. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

Unfortunately, it would probably cost $400,000/year in 'administrative' costs to run the program. That's the problem with asking the government to start and run a program like this. They would probably have to create a whole new department with a manager and staff...now the $50 fee turns into $125 and goes up every year so the new department can hire more people and grow the bureaucracy :freak:   

 

TimS

Tim fair point I was in military for 12 years.  Goverment is very bad at managing money.  Pay to play worked very well in Alaska.  It was focused on areas with extremely easy access just like Canal.   But from what I have seen Masschusetts as one of the most inefficient systems so your 4 times the actual cost assesment may be dead on.  In Alaska they also limited you to one king salmon a season from certain river systems.  The Susitna drainage is probably as larger than entire Conneticut River system.  Its one fish a year in that drainage last time I was there.  Once kept you were done fishing and it was a real tag just like a big game animal tag.  It was a very successful program but interestingly enough there were still a lot of closures due to commercial overfishing at the mouth cause poor escapement that necessitated recreational fishing closures.  I give the american commercial fishermen the benefit of the doubt because studies were showing large portions of those salmon populations were leaving US waters so international commercial efforts potentially were having a greater impact than the better regulated american fishermen. 

 

That said based on my limited three years at the Ditch it has a serious problem when the hoard descends and if it takes an expensive governent effort to regulate it then that is probably what needs to happen.  That does not mean more comprehensive efforts coast wide to help with striper conservation is not also necessary.  The Canal reminds me of NYC late 80s early 90s with rampant almost lawless ness and petty crime before the major crack down.  I stopped going during moon tides becuase I dont feel like getting in fist fight over fishing.

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1 hour ago, Canalfisher22 said:

They actually spawn in A LOT of rivers.....

Agree. They probably spawn in the Charles and Mystic River as well as the Merrimack. Probably every major river in New England and beyond have spawning Striped Bass. I had the same talk with Dick Russel author of Striper Wars. He agrees The question is are the spawns successful? 

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