cashews121

Flounder?

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GSB between the pollution for cesspools, the necessity for "green grass", not the least of which is fishing for these scrappy little guys.

 

Personal observation from Captree Fleet this past spring saw ONE (1) flounder caught for the three four weeks that boat sailed.

There should be a moratorium.

 

Next is going to be the Stripers, all you have to do is look at the reports from the recreational fleet and the hyperbole "meat wagon", "striper slaughter".  continuous bombardment of 40 and 50lbers on covers of magazines as "TROPHY" fish.  Two hours later i surmise they are  in the garbage can or cat food, because you really have to wonder how old these fish are and how many times they've been up and down the east river.


How about FL with their management of Tarpon and their fish resources. 

 

Shame on us.e reports from FL on their and you have to

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4 hours ago, hydraman said:

I believe overfishing these spots is a much bigger problem than global warming. 

Agreed.  Their numbers started taking a hit long before global warming became the popular scapegoat.  Maybe the fact that people used to catch garbage can loads had something to do with it.

 

In the 80s pollution was the excuse for the precipitous decline of the striped bass when in reality the main culprit was overfishing.

Winter Flounder.JPG

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5 hours ago, hydraman said:

I believe overfishing these spots is a much bigger problem than global warming. 

There are some old studies done by a biologist named, if I recall correctly, Poole, who was with the NY DEC years ago.  He was tagging flounder in Great South Bay.  Looking back on those studies today, it turns out that the fishing mortality just from recreational boats in the Bay exceeded what we now believe is that proper fishing mortality threshold; that's even before offshore harvest is figured in.

 

But back then, there were no population models for winter flounder, and no one realized how badly they were being overfished.  It's a wonder that they held on as long as they did.

 

Another problem is stock structure.  Flounder have local spawning populations, that don't mix on the spawning grounds.  So when you fish them down in one place, new fish from another spawning population don't come in to take the place of the fish that are gone.  So fishermen move to another bay, or maybe even another part of the same bay, and fish down that population, then move on to do it again...

 

Acoustic tagging studies being carried out in Shinnecock Bay also strongly suggest that there are at least two--maybe three--discreet spawning stocks, one that moves offshore when waters warm, and one that stays in the bay and, until the current seasons were adopted in 2005 or so, could be beat up, and fished down, all through the summer.  There are still two peaks for larval deposition each spring, which suggest that two stocks still exist there, although in badly depleted numbers.

 

Winter flounder were victims of ignorance at first--no one realized how complicated their life history was, and so couldn't consider it when managing the fish, until fairly recently.  But they were also a victim of many folks' greed, and of a sort of spineless management system that didn't stand up to that greed when there was still a chance to return the fish to health.

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5 hours ago, hydraman said:

I believe overfishing these spots is a much bigger problem than global warming. 

Apologies.  Double post

Edited by CWitek

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In my neighborhood in south jersey some of the best fishing of the year from mid 1960s through mid 1970s when I was growing up was mid March till end of April fishing in the back bay for winter flounder. An average day was 25-30 between myself brother and dad. The collapse was pretty sudden in the late 1970s when they became so scarce we basically stopped fishing for them. I heard at the time that a parasite affected them which makes sense to me since the collapse was so sudden. During the mid 1980s I would occasionally fish for them 1 day per year in prime season early April to see if any were around and a good day was a couple.  I would expect overfishing or warmer water temps would have resulted in a more gradual collapse. Also the late 1970s when the collapse was most evident had a series of very cold winters.  Seems like the collapse up north was later than south jersey. Today no one fishes for them and many regulars don’t even know what they are so in my area a moratorium is basically in place.  So sad that they are gone. 

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3 hours ago, hydraman said:

Scientist still don’t know much about the ocean and cooling and warming trends have been going on for thousands of years. The difference is the population boom in the last century and the overfishing is truly the reason why fish stocks are what they are. You guys keep believing in the bull**** science and people telling you what to believe. Scientists have been wrong many many times what makes anyone so sure they are right about this. Yes fishermen spend countless hours on the water. Most times more than any scientist. To Laugh at that is being very close minded and shows very little real world experience. 

Seems like you are willing to believe the bull**** science that

tells us the ocean cooling and warming trends have been going

on for thousands of years tho. When did the science turn to

bull**** science to you? Maybe when it came from someone you

hate because of their politics?

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3 hours ago, hydraman said:

Scientist still don’t know much about the ocean and cooling and warming trends have been going on for thousands of years. The difference is the population boom in the last century and the overfishing is truly the reason why fish stocks are what they are. You guys keep believing in the bull**** science and people telling you what to believe. Scientists have been wrong many many times what makes anyone so sure they are right about this. Yes fishermen spend countless hours on the water. Most times more than any scientist. To Laugh at that is being very close minded and shows very little real world experience. 

Seems like you are willing to believe the bull**** science that

tells us the ocean cooling and warming trends have been going

on for thousands of years tho. When did the science turn to

bull**** science to you? Maybe when it came from someone you

hate because of their politics?

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3 hours ago, hydraman said:

Scientist still don’t know much about the ocean and cooling and warming trends have been going on for thousands of years. The difference is the population boom in the last century and the overfishing is truly the reason why fish stocks are what they are. You guys keep believing in the bull**** science and people telling you what to believe. Scientists have been wrong many many times what makes anyone so sure they are right about this. Yes fishermen spend countless hours on the water. Most times more than any scientist. To Laugh at that is being very close minded and shows very little real world experience. 

Seems like you are willing to believe the bull**** science that

tells us the ocean cooling and warming trends have been going

on for thousands of years tho. When did the science turn to

bull**** science to you? Maybe when it came from someone you

hate because of their politics?

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19 mins ago, yosco said:

Chit. Sorry.

 

Lol...

 

Science that leads to medicine that cures my disease...good! Science to let me fly on airplanes...great! Science that contradicts my political views...bad! Junk science! 

 

I suppose you can pick and choose and weave your own understanding of the universe...but don't confuse that jumbled tapestry for reality. 

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2 hours ago, jps1010 said:

Agreed.  Their numbers started taking a hit long before global warming became the popular scapegoat.  Maybe the fact that people used to catch garbage can loads had something to do with it.

 

In the 80s pollution was the excuse for the precipitous decline of the striped bass when in reality the main culprit was overfishing.

Winter Flounder.JPG

 

I don't think anyone is discounting overfishing, the point is now that the stocks have collapsed due to overfishing...the warming temps is preventing rebuilding. 

 

Isn't that basically what happened to GOM cod? I don't know why this is controversial, or why people insist on an either/or explanation. 

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5 hours ago, CWitek said:

Because the "draconian" reductions were never as severe as biologists recommended; instead, they were always halfway measures adopted after the fishing industry--recreational and commercial--complained that the needed rules would put them out of business.

 

The New England Fishery Management Council never adopted an annual catch limit until after the 2006 reauthorization of Magnuson-Stevens required it.  Instead, they tried to control landings with Days at Sea limitations and similar measures that never got overfishing under control.

 

ASMFC was just as bad.  I've been on its winter flounder advisory panel since the late 1990s.  They were supposed to reduce landings in 1999, but when NMFS wasn't willing to reduce landings offshore, ASMFC refused to reduce the kill when the fish were on their inshore spawning grounds.  On the other hand, when NMFS briefly closed the fishery about 10 years ago, ASMFC refused to go along because people needed "a fish to take home."  And then, with the population effectively collapsed, they increased the recreational season (southern New England/Mid-Atlantic stock) from 60 days to 10 months.  Just because.

 

NMFS tried to shut the fishery down for a while (again, SNEMA stock), but when the trawlers complained, Pat Kurkul, who was then the regional administrator, reduced the size of the no-trawl zone instituted to reduce flounder discard mortality.  Then John Bullard came in, cut down the cod quota, but increased the winter flounder quota, using the logic that the stock wouldn't be rebuilt by the deadline anyway.

 

Here in New York, the state tried to do the right thing in the late 1980s, but the party boats complained that customers had to have the "perception" that they could have a "big day," defined as a day when they killed a big bunch of fish.  So the state backed off on proposed regulations, and everything has been too little, too late since then.

 

The results speak for themselves.

 

Having said that, we can't completely discount warming waters, etc.  As a biologist I know, who does a lot of winter flounder work, once commented, "Overfishing is what got them to their current state, but it's not what's keeping them there."  But he also believes that if the stock was adequately protected, there is a fair chance that it could be rebuilt to levels much higher than what we see now.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, jimmy z said:

What a load of hogwash. Over fished to the point of extinction period!! :howdy:

While I believe there maybe some merit to warming ocean temps on the southern limit of the winter flounder’s range, I really believe fisheries management is using convenient scientific data to mask a complete failure on their part to manage stocks.  New England fisheries management is a joke and completely incompetent 

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5 hours ago, yosco said:

Seems like you are willing to believe the bull**** science that

tells us the ocean cooling and warming trends have been going

on for thousands of years tho. When did the science turn to

bull**** science to you? Maybe when it came from someone you

hate because of their politics?

What does politics have to do with any of this friend? It was never part of the conversation and has nothing to do with my opinion. I was trying to make a point. It would be foolish to say I don’t believe in any science. And yes I do believe in something that’s been going on for many thousands of years. A trend of the earth warming and cooling. Now blaming the reason the flounder is gone on global warming is garbage.  

5 hours ago, buddha162 said:

 

Lol...

 

Science that leads to medicine that cures my disease...good! Science to let me fly on airplanes...great! Science that contradicts my political views...bad! Junk science! 

 

I suppose you can pick and choose and weave your own understanding of the universe...but don't confuse that jumbled tapestry for reality. 

Reality is what you make of it friend.  We all choose what we see as reality. Like you. You make an assumption that my view was political by something someone wrote that came out of his behind. Now this is your reality which is ok but totally false. Science is great when it’s used corect and by knowledgeable scientist. This is my opinion and reality. Now you see I don’t need a bunch of exclamation points to make my point about nothing. Enjoy your reality pal. 

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edit. made a comment about an article I read stating that cormorants were not destructive. but I don't want to defend this article. you can delete this post. 

Edited by jeffapeikin

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13 hours ago, buddha162 said:

 

I don't think anyone is discounting overfishing, the point is now that the stocks have collapsed due to overfishing...the warming temps is preventing rebuilding. 

 

Isn't that basically what happened to GOM cod? I don't know why this is controversial, or why people insist on an either/or explanation. 

There are some that do discount overfishing.  I have heard people blame the cormorants, global warming and pollution instead. 

 

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