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Orvis Montauk Monster Fly?

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5 hours ago, ferret said:

At the end of the day, do you really think that saltwater fish care all that much?  I understand trout or salmon flies are different story, but the original flies being discussed in this thread are saltwater.

Yes, I addressed that in my post -

 

"Today's fly bins also feature numerous Larger Salmon, Tropical & General Saltwater patterns. Differences from fly to fly is more easily visible due to the much larger fly & hence readily apparent."

 

"Pre-measuring materials is also more challenging & less applicable with many Saltwater patterns. However, great attention to proportions & production tying techniques can go a long way towards helping standardize. As can awareness of dimensions which can also help."

 

"Fly Tying actually can be very precise.  It just mostly isn't today."

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On 11/24/2018 at 6:00 AM, Mike Oliver said:

Ferret

 

 

Do we attribute more brains to FW fish. Salmon flies don’t represent any thing that may be bred in a river mostly yet on their day they get ate.

I think that if we have a pattern that it is not a bad thing to try and tye close to it or we lose reference to it.

Way way more important is fishing on front of fish that are wanting to eat.

I am with you does any fish care. They are not able to refer to a dictionary of flies. If we have not spooked them and we can reach them there is a chance we can catch them. Sometimes we may have to change a pattern to get bit and that’s part of the fun. Even in FW with so called selective Trout my money is on stealth and presentation before fly pattern although it mostly makes sense to cast something that looks about right.

I honestly think many kid themselves. Do we really think that thread  hair and hackle  are dead ringers for the real thing.

But it makes for discussion. and diversion as winter sets in. Our Trout season draws to an end in a couple of days fly in salt to. Time to catch an aeroplane.

 

mikey

I agree that presentation and stealth are more important than fly design (80% of game in my opinion), but six years into to fishing the same spring herring pattern I can tell you that I think fly design really matters.  Though at this point I am starting to fall into Popovics school of material movement is more important than realism.  I did well at night with bulky static all synthetic patterns, but at first light they stopped producing well yet the bite and fish activity was ramping up as herring were dumping to make mad dash to estuary.  I changed materials to incorporate some saddles and materials that gave me the back 1/3 fly pattern movement and that new fly the next day produced 6/1 over my other flies that were all stiff synthetics (EP Fibers and Farrar Blends).  Oddly I found at night the stiffer lighter all synthetics flies produced better because i believe I can cast them further and they push more water the fish are not looking for the visual cue of the back third tail motion to determine if an offering is alive or not.  

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On 11/24/2018 at 0:36 AM, ferret said:

At the end of the day, do you really think that saltwater fish care all that much?  I understand trout or salmon flies are different story, but the original flies being discussed in this thread are saltwater.

Uhh. The points I made here are about tying consistently similar flies from a production standpoint.

 

Not sure fish care at all but that wasn't the point. I was commenting that YES - it is easily possible, even with larger-sized fly patterns to tie several dozen and have them all look very close to one another. Will there be small differences or inconsistencies? Yes and this is the case with any sized fly however better fly tires and expert commercial producers can minimize differences without a doubt.

 

I used to pass a guy every morning who was fishing one of the biggest and gnarliest and ugliest and poorly tied wooly buggers I've ever seen in my life -with a full sinking line. He would stay in the same spot all day long ,fishing into a deep pool in a river I used to fish as a kid.

 

I would go buy him and work several hundred yards of river, maybe even more  depending on the day, then  I would come back through and he'd be gone but I would see him in the parking lot at duskvand he always had a nice big fish. 

 

I'd grab a sandwich and then head back out to night fish and I was only sure of one thing. Nothing. We aren't fish we are fishermen. Sometimes we catch and sometimes we don't.

 

To your point,  fish do not care about consistency in fly bin at all. But customers do.

 

If I want a number 18 Shad Fly and I want a dozen of them I'd like them all to be as close to the same as possible.

 

The same is true of saltwater flies. I like flies of a given hook size to be proportioned correctly. It's a big turn-off to look at a fly bin and see a bunch of messy looking flies that aren't consistently tied. I have seen quality operations I have seen garbage and I know the difference. 

 

If I look in a fly bin, as a customer, and I see a bunch of flies in a certain size and they all don't look similar I'm walking out and I'm not spending a dime. The Assumption I will make is that the Flies aren't that good even though almost every single fly in that bin that I snubbed would probably catch a fish.

 

Obviously I haven't bought a store-bought fly in about 40 years but the point is  that if you're going to tie flies commercially you need to be consistent and you need to develop and produce consistent products. 

 

The larger the commercial operation and the higher the volume the harder it is to achieve what I'm talking about.

 

Edited by CaryGreene

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I caught this on one of Andrew's Flies ( Rachel Marie  in the fly tying forum)  It was a beast fly.  If you want to see a big fly look up Bob Popovic Beast Fly. Big fly, big fish

 

 

OnAFly.JPG

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On 11/26/2018 at 11:04 AM, The Graveyard Shift said:

I agree that presentation and stealth are more important than fly design (80% of game in my opinion), but six years into to fishing the same spring herring pattern I can tell you that I think fly design really matters.  Though at this point I am starting to fall into Popovics school of material movement is more important than realism.  I did well at night with bulky static all synthetic patterns, but at first light they stopped producing well yet the bite and fish activity was ramping up as herring were dumping to make mad dash to estuary.  I changed materials to incorporate some saddles and materials that gave me the back 1/3 fly pattern movement and that new fly the next day produced 6/1 over my other flies that were all stiff synthetics (EP Fibers and Farrar Blends).  Oddly I found at night the stiffer lighter all synthetics flies produced better because i believe I can cast them further and they push more water the fish are not looking for the visual cue of the back third tail motion to determine if an offering is alive or not.  

That's a very intriguing, thought-provoking observation.

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1 hour ago, PeteD said:

I caught this on one of Andrew's Flies ( Rachel Marie  in the fly tying forum)  It was a beast fly.  If you want to see a big fly look up Bob Popovic Beast Fly. Big fly, big fish

 

 

OnAFly.JPG

Andrews flies rock.  That is an epic bass on the fly

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1 hour ago, BrianBM said:

That's a very intriguing, thought-provoking observation.

Between reading Rich Murphy and Bob P's books plus my 6 seaons worth of efforts I am starting to really think about daylight and night flies differently.  My best night flies dont produce well after sunrise and my best daylighy flies dont produce as well after dark.  The brighter the moon though the  better the daylight flies produce.  

 

Vibration, rattles, waking or darting swim action seem way more imposrtant at night.  Either very top or very bottom of water column are key.

 

Day time subtle movement of materials, color gradient, and subtler retrieves are producing best unless fish are blitzing.  depths vary with a lot of fish taking middle third of water column or near bottom with less surface bites than at night.

 

I also have been experimenting with scent as well.  Heresy to fly fishers I know.  I have been testing pro-cure super gel in herring, bunker, eel, and peeler crab.  Daylight the scented flies have no discernible difference in catch rate.  Night time the scented flies out catch 3/1.  Generally I dont like to put scent on flies they stink pretty much forever afterwards.  But I have found that in some scenarios where there is too much bait and I cannot elicit a strike the scent will save the night.  A good example is herring runs in the spring.  Some times small pods of herring run broken up and this is ideal scenario it gets bass in shallow and on the feed.  A well presented fly gets plenty of strikes.  Other times massive runs come in with a thousand herring jammed into a small area.  The bass are exploding on bait but you cannot get a bite.  You try fishing fly every possible presentation but nothing.  Put scent on and let fly drop down toward bottom and fish on regularly after that.  

 

My theory is when that density of bait exisits and bass are hyper focused on it at night things that dont smell right get ignored.  They are not incentivised to feed opportunistically so ignore things that smell wrong.  Even if I spin fish and throw a live eel in the mix that too will be ignored.  So matching the "scent" profile during a night blitz is important on big baitfish like herring or bunker.  

 

9/10 trips in 2018 I was throwing unscented flies.  I saved it as a last resort to save some night trips, but seeing how it impacted the success rate when I ran the two week trial period end of August.  it has me wondering if its worth using more often.  I always found scented plastics could out produce live bait with largemouth bass when the presentation was done correctly so scented flies might be the

ultimate striper night approach.  There is also the question of where do I draw my own personal line on whats fly fishing.  Is scent too far?  Some people would say european attractor tails (large curly tails) and heavy amounts of lead on my flies has alread DQ them as flies so maybe I really dont need to worry about this distinction and should go wild with scent (honestly the after stink really is main thing keeping this in check.  Ground eel or bunker gel smells awful)  We will see how things continue to progress in 2019

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11 mins ago, BrianBM said:

I'll follow your experiments with interest.  But I'll stay upwind while doing so. ;)

I bring a tupper ware container.  Scented flies go in there after fishing.  I fish before work so figured out leaving them in car in commuter parking lot all day makes for an unpleasant return to vehicle after work if they are not in the sealed container.

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I bought two of these for PIke fishing in Ireland years ago.  They worked pushed a lot of water and really in current were just swung making a nice V with a twitch here and there.  

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On 12/16/2018 at 8:25 PM, The Graveyard Shift said:

...  Some people would say european attractor tails (large curly tails) and heavy amounts of lead on my flies has alread DQ them as flies so maybe I really dont need to worry about this distinction and should go wild with scent (honestly the after stink really is main thing keeping this in check.  Ground eel or bunker gel smells awful)  We will see how things continue to progress in 2019

You can always save what's left, bury it in the ground for a month and then go after catfish. :-)

 

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