02807Fish

Hinging and Large Shooting Line Front Loops

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Perhaps one of the resident fly line experts such as Esa can answer this.  What, if any, effect do the large 8" loops that come standard on running lines have on loop shape?  It's been argued that running heavy shooting heads off of much thinner running lines, such as mono, can cause hinging of the line system.  One of the benefits of a larger tapered handling section on coated running lines has been said to avoid this (as an added benefit to giving a better grasp on the line).  I have typically just cut these large loops off and welded a smaller one in its place, when making my own slick shooter style running lines (I like the OPST 50lb Lazar mono line for this).

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Theoretically, the large loop should reduce the tendency to hinge because you're effectively adding a transitional mass between the light running line and the heavy shooting head.

 

Experiment and see what happens in your own system.

 

Cheers,

Graeme

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Just a joe blow non-xpert but is hinging even a problem in the running line to head connection? I think you'd want to go past hinging, whatever is worse than hinging, on your shooting head. The shooting head and rod in complete control with that running line only being used to move the shooting head, not shape the loops.

 

I can see that the rear taper of the shooting head is important for how the head unrolls, but running line being important in terms of how you cast? 

 

I use a Rio Outbound with 30lb mono attached with a clinch knot. Most important thing in casting is casting fast and narrow loops. When I cast slow and wider loops I get waves on the shoot and it collapses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't quite follow your reasoning.  Assuming you use some overhang (I typically use 1 to 2 feet, depending upon how deep I am wading), or especially if you shoot some line on the back cast, isn't part of the running line the leading edge of the loop?  Isn't that why if you use too much overhang with a shooting head on a single back and forward cast the cast will fail?

 

Also, I use mostly two handed rods, either for Spey techniques or for overhead beach casting.  At least for me, casting fast does not equal tight loops.  In fact going slow helps longer rods load more deeply, of course depending upon their taper.  It's the abrupt stop that creates line speed.

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Graeme,

 

Thanks.  I will give it a try.  I can always cut the loop off and go back to a homemade welded loop it it doesn't work for me.

 

Mark

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Mark glad you mentioned your rig. I do a 9'6" single hand rod so I guess we are in different boats for sure and what works for me really might not be helpful. 

 

As to overhang: the problem I find with too much overhang is the shooting head gets really hard to control while casting and sort of flaps and bounces around. I hadn't even thought about the flight part of the cast. 

 

I like same overhang as you--just enough to haul and not much more, but it's not like I have complete control over it. 

 

Line speed: from what  I read it's a combo of distance and speed of your cast and haul, for a given stroke. So a long haul, arm extending from the rod and straightening out to past your leg and even your hand flicking doward at the end + your forward stroke being extended out straight with your arm and your wrist to cover the greatest distance + being timed right i.e. ending together or somewhere around there. But I'm no expert I was just reading about this stuff last spring it's intersting there are different approaches. 

 

 

Edited by Otshawytsha

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I think that when line loop begins to form a too big connection loops between shooting head and shooting line increase air drag which slows down line shoot and accelerates line loop run speed which both shortens the cast. Perhaps it has only marginal effect but on my competition setups I use very small loops and on mono SL I also form loop narrow and bend it S-shape using nose pliers. Too small loops increase bulk and about 1/3" (8mm) length is about optimum size for 30lbs mono and line core loops. 

 

However my fishing setups my shooting lines have so big loop that I can pull shooting head coil thru it when I change it so I think it has marginal effect to performance :)

 

Loop to loop connection does not cause "hinging" although lines are not fused together but when loop section is physically heavy it does. Some of it comes when transition has big weight difference. Just yesterday I noticed line loop overshoot on leader connection when I tested mono core clear/floating shooting head which still has factory made front loop because othervise did cast very nice line loops.

 

Esa

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Loop size shouldn't be an issue , hinging in might occur if your head is very hvy , but this issue doesn't bother me or the fish .

However casting those heads requires a sweet spot to be found regarding length of running line out during initial cast stroke !

ive personally always found less tighter loops more efficient to cast heads . The power stroke and timing of same when Rod is fully loaded is key to speed and distance ! Fully loading Rod can be initiated by a good roll cast on pick,up,as this cast accelerates away from you then pick up line which is already charged for your back cast makes for ward cast a breeze !

if the running line is dropping prematurely then may be too much out or your power forward stoke on cast too weak to carry line ! 

Practice many differences on each caster masters this issue , but only one way is best for each outfit and style . 

Casting heads too me is the easiest cast period to get distance , easily without a series of backs casts . 

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11 hours ago, 02807Fish said:

I typically use 1 to 2 feet, depending upon how deep I am wading)

This to me seems like too much overhang to begin with, and when wading deep you would want even less. The effective rod length decreases the deeper you wade.  When wading deep you might even consider having the head partially in the guides a half a foot or more.

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Squish,

 

I agree.  When wading deep I limit overhang to about a foot.  But I find that some overhang is necessary to load a rod with a shooting head, regardless of whether is a single hand or double handed rod (I mainly use the later) and regardless of whether I am Spey casting or overhead casting a single hand or double handed rod.

 

Mark 

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Esa,

 

Thanks.  This is all good and useful information.

 

The individual legs of most of the factory 8" loops I have seen appear smaller in diameter and equal in total mass as the handling section of the shooting line (at least by eyeballing them).  So I would assume that there is no significant weight difference. 

 

I'm curious as to what you meant by this: "Just yesterday I noticed line loop overshoot on leader connection when I tested mono core clear/floating shooting head which still has factory made front loop because otherwise did cast very nice line loops."  Was the factory loop the large type meant for swapping out coiled heads, or the smaller type?  What do you mean by "line loop overshoot on leader connection"?

 

Mark

 

 

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Overhang has at least two positive effect to cast. It improves line loop when rod tip erratic moves don't transfer full power to the line head when there is a length of light line between rod tip and beginning of the line head. Obviously overhang can also be used to increase line speed when line release can be delayed without line loop widening when rod tip path inevitably turns down towards the end of rod straightening.

 

Esa

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