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Holy moly I am terrible at Skagit/Switch

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scooleen74

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So I went out and tried like hell to put flies on Carp, and despite terrible wind, dark gross water the color of effluent lo and behold there were a few rises but no takers.  Afterwards I was left with so many questions about Skagit casting, specifically the Snap T.  I have a few questions for those who like the TH way and before you ask, I bought this setup 7 years ago when moving to NY with dreams of shooting 100' across the Salmon River, life happened (2 daughters) and I am now finally going for Steelhead this winter.

 

I am using a Sage Z Axis 8110-4 I bought this outfit online from Leland knowing nothing at all.  The line is a compact Rio that reads 650 on the tip.  It came with a red leader wallet with various heads.  I am booking a guided wading trip on the Salmon for November or December (already reached out to a guide) but I need to polish up this cast and have idiot level questions.  I cannot go another winter up here without fishing for 7 months like last year so I need to take advantage of my proximity to the Great Lakes area because I wont/cannot ice fish.

 

Would any knowledgeable souls care to opine below I would be grateful.

 

1.  Do I attach the floating leader section (loop to loop) to the main skagit head?  Just casting the skagit head without the loop to loop connection it felt like it was hinging horribly I would assume so?  You don't attach your leader to the main skagit head correct, you add the included floating head to the setup?

 

2. Is 650 gr the correct weight for this setup?  

 

I searched and found a posting  Started by KironaFly, December 9, 2014 and he indicated a line far lighter than my setup but it may not be a skagit head.

 

The Sage is on the left, I also own an Orvis 9wt Shooting Star Spey rod that I used for swinging shad flies in the South, the OH cast was far simpler for me but its been so long ago Ive lost all understanding of this.  

 

3. If you could only keep one and sell the other which to keep?  I could never buy either now as I got them before i had kids but keeping two with my schedule and responsibilities is pointless.

 

Finally does anyone here go for Steelhead on the Salmon, are there any meetups would anyone be interested in meeting out there this winter?

 

Thank you for your time and understanding!

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18 mins ago, scooleen74 said:

So I went out and tried like hell to put flies on Carp, and despite terrible wind, dark gross water the color of effluent lo and behold there were a few rises but no takers.  Afterwards I was left with so many questions about Skagit casting, specifically the Snap T.  I have a few questions for those who like the TH way and before you ask, I bought this setup 7 years ago when moving to NY with dreams of shooting 100' across the Salmon River, life happened (2 daughters) and I am now finally going for Steelhead this winter.

 

I am using a Sage Z Axis 8110-4 I bought this outfit online from Leland knowing nothing at all.  The line is a compact Rio that reads 650 on the tip.  It came with a red leader wallet with various heads.  I am booking a guided wading trip on the Salmon for November or December (already reached out to a guide) but I need to polish up this cast and have idiot level questions.  I cannot go another winter up here without fishing for 7 months like last year so I need to take advantage of my proximity to the Great Lakes area because I wont/cannot ice fish.

 

Would any knowledgeable souls care to opine below I would be grateful.

 

1.  Do I attach the floating leader section (loop to loop) to the main skagit head?  Just casting the skagit head without the loop to loop connection it felt like it was hinging horribly I would assume so?  You don't attach your leader to the main skagit head correct, you add the included floating head to the setup?

 

2. Is 650 gr the correct weight for this setup?  

 

I searched and found a posting  Started by KironaFly, December 9, 2014 and he indicated a line far lighter than my setup but it may not be a skagit head.

 

The Sage is on the left, I also own an Orvis 9wt Shooting Star Spey rod that I used for swinging shad flies in the South, the OH cast was far simpler for me but its been so long ago Ive lost all understanding of this.  

 

3. If you could only keep one and sell the other which to keep?  I could never buy either now as I got them before i had kids but keeping two with my schedule and responsibilities is pointless.

 

Finally does anyone here go for Steelhead on the Salmon, are there any meetups would anyone be interested in meeting out there this winter?

 

Thank you for your time and understanding!

KIMG4604.jpg

While not directly corresponding to your numerical questions, here ya go:

So for an 8 wt 11 foot long switch rod, my preference would be one of the newer short Skagit heads, about 20’ long.  The short length makes it way easier to form a D loop in a compact area and set up the cast delivery with all of the Skagit head in the Air with just the tip/ leader/fly forming the anchor in the water.  I use a 600 grain 20' head on my 11’ 7-9 Meiser switch rod.  For tips, Skagit is designed to throw sink tips capable of turning over larger/weighted flies.  The weight of the tip will correspond to the weight if the head (Rio has a chart on this). For Skagit heads 575 grains and up the recommend the “heavy” series of tips.  I use a straight level 10’ piece of T14 (this adds 140 grains to the line system).  I then use 3-4’ of Maxima Ultragreen leader, then the fly to a loop knot.  If you don’t want to get as deep, you can sub an iMOW or MOW tip that is part floating or intermediate and part T14.  All of the above is based on water anchored casts such as double spey or snap T.  For great casting video help check out videos by Ashland Fly Shop.

 

Hope this helps...

Greg

 

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If you can, get in touch with jerry and lisa at spey casting northeast. $50 for several hours of instruction, then free after that for refreshers. Aside from being some of the nicest people youll meet, very patient as well. Plus Jerry has god knows how many different lines in his truck so you can try different ones and dial in your setup. 

 

https://www.speycastingnortheast.com/

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650 skagit is too heavy for that rod unless you have one of the old lines with an integrated floating tip.  Normally that rod takes 500 skagit belly + 150 tip ( = 650 total).  

 

How long is the main portion of skagit line?  Is the front tapered down over 10’ or merely 2’ length?  

 

And the wallet of “heads”  ... are they really heads, or tips, or just polyleaders?

 

I agree with above, sounds like a hands-on lesson that clears up your tackle and provides learner’s basics is warranted.

 

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There is no Skagit casting, it is just Spey casting!

 

But there are Skagit lines which are not easy or efficient lines for Spey casting. Biggest problem is too short leader which bring quite a lot of heavy line to the bottom of the D-loop and when it needs to be lift out the water the anchor tends to blow. So if fishing allows use longer mono leader and then the fly has proportionally bigger water drag and anchor comes stronger but lifting light mono line also waste less cast energy.

 

Typical Scandi lines are easier and more efficient to Spey cast because they have more mass in their rear half and they also behave better because the line mass decrease smoother towards the line tip.

 

1. The difference is not so bit that there is need to buy new line but yes use floating tip and longer leader which increase cast efficiency more when sustained anchor casts are done. Perhaps you should tune the Skagit belly lighter and shorter? It would be good if you could measure the head dismeters every two feet and I could tell how to improve it?

 

Esa

 

 

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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5 hours ago, crunch said:

There is no Skagit casting, it is just Spey casting!

 

But there are Skagit lines which are not easy or efficient lines for Spey casting. Biggest problem is too short leader which bring quite a lot of heavy line to the bottom of the D-loop and when it needs to be lift out the water the anchor tends to blow. So if fishing allows use longer mono leader and then the fly has proportionally bigger water drag and anchor comes stronger but lifting light mono line also waste less cast energy.

 

Typical Scandi lines are easier and more efficient to Spey cast because they have more mass in their rear half and they also behave better because the line mass decrease smoother towards the line tip.

 

1. The difference is not so bit that there is need to buy new line but yes use floating tip and longer leader which increase cast efficiency more when sustained anchor casts are done. Perhaps you should tune the Skagit belly lighter and shorter? It would be good if you could measure the head dismeters every two feet and I could tell how to improve it?

 

Esa

 

 

Esa,

Take a look at Nextcast "Skagit" lines as they are rear weighted and relatively easy to do single spey with a weighted fly. They also allow for efficient sustained anchor casts. They overhead well too!

George

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2 hours ago, gjq said:

Esa,

Take a look at Nextcast "Skagit" lines as they are rear weighted and relatively easy to do single spey with a weighted fly. They also allow for efficient sustained anchor casts. They overhead well too!

George

 

As does the Gaelforce Skagit head.

 

Mark

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Greg thank you for this information I am now reading that chart, also wanted to say I heard from Lisa at Spey Casting NE and will signup for an outing so thank you Fro for 75.00 I think its a great investment before I drive 4 hours to a river.

 

I looked over the line i have again, its a 550 Grain Skagit line from RIO , the main portion is long and what appears to be integrated floating head that transitions to the blue section built into the line.  Pictured also is the loop to loop section that reads Rio 8/9/10 which I assume is the section you attach for dry flies or tippet/leader for shallow drifts? The heavy section is about 25' I tried to measure it as best I could but its hardly scientific, it doesnt taper until about a 1' from where it transitions into the blue running line.  Thanks for all your help.  I really cannot take another winter without going fly fishing again, last winter although wasnt epic in terms of snowfall here (saratoga area) it was long.

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You have a mish-mosh of stuff.  The main line is a skagit belly (yellow) with integrated running line (blue).  The yellow 8/9/10 is called a “skagit cheater” and was intended originally as a way to extend skagit lines and make them longer.  They also make them heavier.  Cheaters don’t have much taper, might work for slinging a bobber, but are not as smooth casting as a tapered floating tip.   You should be able to loop any floating or sinking tip 10-15’ long to the main belly (no cheater) and try casting that.  It’ll run a wee bit heavy for the rod, but not terribly so.

 

Esa’s comments about spey/scandi/skagit lines have some technical merit but IMO are generally misplaced when it comes to practical considerations of many North American fisheries.  Many anglers here use lighter rods and larger heavier flies than Atlantic salmon anglers in Europe.  Steelhead aren’t as big, and they often run in winter, where big heavy flies help provoke strikes.  Skagit lines work well for this.  They are vastly easier to cast big heavy flies with light tackle when compared to scandi lines.  They also load a rod deep, which helps beginners feel load. That’s why they sell so well in the states.  I learned 20 years ago on a double taper and have seen all the line crazes move through the states.  It is still happening.  Skagit lines continue to dominate here for good reason, though admittedly I don’t use them much myself these days, they’re perfect for getting a quick start in the spey game

 

Stick with what you’ve got, don’t spend a penny until you’ve had that lesson!

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Quick question for you SSpey please.

 

In previous days before skagit lines seemed to get shorter and shorter I think a rough rule,of thumb was a rod about three times longer than the skagit line although I can’t remember  if that included the seperate tip.

 

 

Ok today what are the  recommendations for matching skagit lines  length  to rod length.

 

If I can another question when casting a  skagit line is all of the  looped on tip section say a 12 foot sinking tip anchored to the water or just some of it.

 

Should all of the actual body of the skagit line be making the D loop and none of it in the water.

 

Or is it not that simple.

 

Mike

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As far as I know, no one has successfully taught themselves to cast watching online videos. I’ve seen people cast that have said they learned online... and it shows.

 

get your self and your set up to a shop and get your line/rod dialed in and some casting help.

 

Depending on where you’re at in NY, I would recommend Tight Lines Fly Fishing in NJ. Top class shop and the owner is passionate about two hand/Spey casting. 

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11 mins ago, Mike Oliver said:

Quick question for you SSpey please.

 

In previous days before skagit lines seemed to get shorter and shorter I think a rough rule,of thumb was a rod about three times longer than the skagit line although I can’t remember  if that included the seperate tip.

 

 

Ok today what are the  recommendations for matching skagit lines  length  to rod length.

 

If I can another question when casting a  skagit line is all of the  looped on tip section say a 12 foot sinking tip anchored to the water or just some of it.

 

Should all of the actual body of the skagit line be making the D loop and none of it in the water.

 

Or is it not that simple.

 

Mike

 

Skagit line:rod ratios include the tip, but in general ratios are not prescribed these days. Itis more a continuum that extends down to how-low-can-you-go.  The initial 3:1 to 3.5:1 suggestion was from when skagit lines were first commercially available, and it seemed short at the time (against a backdrop of long belly lines), but people quickly started cutting lines down further and experimenting.  Rods got lighter, too, which had a bearing on line-rod ratios.   

 

These days some anglers favor ratios as low as 1.8 on very light trout speys (2/3/4 wt).  It works.  On more powerful two-hand rods (7/8/9 wts), such short lines are harder to cast due to blown anchors, but overall most anglers are using ratios below 3:1 with most modern “skagit” lines.

 

Ideally the entire line is in the D-loop and there is minimal line stick when the forward cast releases.  Just the fly.  Those casts sail best with least effort, IF the angler can control the D-loop consistently.  As a practical matter that’s difficult to do consistently over a long day of fishing water anchored casts with short 3-5’ leaders (short leaders used to keep less heavy yet swimmy flies down with sunken tips).  Rather than only anchor the fly, casters often strive to initiate the forward cast when half of the sinktip remains anchored  By the time the angler responds to that visual cue, a bit more tip has come out, and stick is minimized. 

 

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When the fly is big it casts better when the line mass is on shorter length! But too short the timing of casting comes more challenging. When the sustained anchor is set it first comes more ot less sideways to the casting direction where 180 decrees would be best but it is possible to use just enough sweep power so that when D-loop forms it pulls the line tip and leader straight 180 decrees. However following so called Constant Movement/Constant Load, CM/CL often leads to Creep which produce a Tailing Loop. That can be OK when fishing small rivers but if longer casts are needed it is better to learn pause when the D-loop forms and even better is to Drift before forward cast when the D-loop forms.

 

Esa

"Game fish are too valuable to be caught only once" 1939 Lee Wulff
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